The following analysis has spoilers (and potential spoilers) for Discovery season three.
A couple of the big mysteries surrounding the third season of Star Trek: Discovery we have been tracking are…
- What is going on with Michelle Yeoh’s Georgiou and her visions?
- Who exactly is the mysterious Kovich, played by David Cronenberg?
A clip from the next episode of Discovery hints at some answers to both and introduces a huge, new element into the show.
Watch the clip from 309
At the end of this week’s episode of The Ready Room aftershow, they showed a clip of the next episode of Star Trek: Discovery. You can watch it below on YouTube, and it is cued up to 27:22 when the clip starts.
What was that about a Romulan mining ship?
Before we dig into everything about Georgiou and Kovich, let’s first discuss the import of something Kovich said. In order to explain what is ailing Georgiou, Kovich showed Dr. Culber a Betelgeusian named Lt. Commander Yor (deceased), whom he described as a “time soldier” from the “Temporal Wars,” presumably referring to the Temporal Cold War featured prominently on Star Trek: Enterprise. This was one of the elements of future Star Trek canon history we assumed would be referenced in season three as it’s set in the 32nd century.
The first thing that jumps out is that Yor is wearing a Starfleet uniform used in the early 2360s, as seen on early seasons of Star Trek: The Next Generation. But Kovich revealed there is much more to Yor:
Yor here traveled forward from 2379 and across from an alternate universe created by the temporal incursion of a Romulan mining ship.
Kovich’s mention of a Romulan mining ship is a clear reference to the Narada from the 2009 Star Trek movie. In the year 2387 in the Prime Universe, the Narada was a Romulan mining ship under the command of Nero that engaged with Spock when he created the black hole that pulled them both back in time.
When the Narada emerged back in time (on Friday, January 4, 2233) and engaged the USS Kelvin, resulting in the destruction of that ship, it spawned an alternative timeline (or alternative universe or alternate reality if you prefer). This is the event that created the “Kelvin timeline“/Kelvin universe, which is the main setting for the three J.J. Abrams Star Trek films.
A Kelvin universe crossover
Even though there have been references to events from the 2009 Star Trek movie in Star Trek: Picard, notably the destruction of Romulus and the resulting Romulan refugee crisis, those all referred to events that happened in the late 24th century of the Prime Universe in the 2009 Star Trek movie.
Kovich is the first character in the Prime Universe so far to reference the Kelvin Universe. It remains to be seen how much Kovich knows about the Kelvin Universe, but if Yor went through the same kind of rigorous debriefing that Georgiou went through or he brought recorded historical information with him, Kovich may know quite a bit, including Spock Prime’s eventual fate.
More importantly, Yor’s arrival in the Prime Universe indicates that crossing over from one to the other is possible. Yor’s familiar uniform also indicates that Starfleet still existed in the late 24th century of the Kelvin Universe. Although by 2379 the Prime Universe version of Starfleet had already moved on to the uniforms seen in Star Trek: Nemesis.
All of this establishes that the Kelvin Universe is essentially no different from the Mirror Universe in terms of an alternative universe where crossings are possible. It opens up the door to many possibilities, both for the Star Trek Universe on TV and the feature films as well. Kovich did say that “Before Georgiou, Yor was the only individual known to have traveled across both time and dimensions.” So it’s possible that there are others who have crossed from Kelvin to Prime or vice versa, but not also through time.
Kovich diagnoses Georgiou
The whole point of Kovich’s Kelvin Universe reveal was to explain what was wrong with Georgiou. Since Kovich’s debriefing with Georgiou in “Die Trying,” the former Emperor has been suffering from some kind of debilitating disorder, which includes blackouts and flashbacks to her past in the Mirror Universe. The only thing we know about Kovich is that he’s an expert on the Terran Empire and Mirror Universe—and the timing of Georgiou’s problems starting immediately after her first encounter with Kovich suggested he was responsible.
However, the above preview clip of episode 309—combined with the teaser trailer for 309—indicates that Kovich was actually not responsible for Georgiou’s problems, as we had theorized. If he is to be believed, the timing of her blackouts starting right after her interrogation was just a coincidence. However, due to his expertise in the Mirror Universe, he is able to diagnose her problems.
According to Kovich, time travel can make you sick, as it “turns out our molecules are designed to function in the time in which they were created.” Of course, the entire crew of Discovery, including a number of other characters in Star Trek history, seemed to survive time travel without any debilitating effects. Georgiou’s problem is that she also jumped universes, and even though the crew of Discovery and various other characters have jumped from the Prime/Mirror Universe divide, they all eventually jumped back. One possible exception to this could be Spock Prime, who survived in the Kelvin Universe for around five years after jumping back in time from the Prime Universe, although he didn’t jump back in time nearly as far as Georgiou jumped forward.
Kovich revealed that “every molecule fights to either go back in time or jump a cosmic divide.” This can explain why Georgiou is having blackouts and flashbacks to her original time and original universe. What remains to be seen is how to cure her of this problem and what the significance is of the specific visions she’s having.
Kovich still could be tied to Section 31
The mystery of “who is Kovich?” remains. In the clip, the only clue he offers is that he “is a man of widely varied interests.” He also has access to classified files, such as the one about Yor, which is likely very highly classified. All of what we see in the clip still fits with our various theories, including our favorite, which is that he heads up the 32nd century’s version of Section 31 or Starfleet Intelligence as a whole. The fact that he already knew she was at risk of the same painful fate as Yor but didn’t tell her or Captain Saru, shows he has his own agenda, which is a very Section 31 type of thing.
And we cannot ignore that work is already underway to give Michelle Yeoh her own Section 31 spin-off show. The original plan was for that show to go into production after season three. So it makes sense that Georgiou’s season three storyline—which involves Cronenberg’s Kovich—is geared to set it up.
New episodes of Star Trek: Discovery premiere on Thursdays on CBS All Access in the U.S. and on CTV Sci-Fi Channel in Canada, where it’s also available to stream on Crave. Episodes are available on Fridays internationally on Netflix.
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It could be that Kovich is part of Section 31 and knows the history of the organization. If Georgiou is going back in time to be part of a Section 31 series, it could be sending her back in time is the only way to “cure” her. So if she does go back in time at the end of this season and is part of Section 31, Kovich would know about this and the role he has to play in sending her back. Isn’t time travel fun??
But that would make Section 31 a 23rd century-based show which I find rather disappointing. Section 31 as a time-travelling future agency would be much more exciting. They could also make Gary Seven and his shape-shifting cat – Grudge’s sister Isis – as part of that show.
Maybe there is a treatment for Space-Hitler that turns her into a constant time traveler…
Actually, I’m not very much interested in a Section 31 show unless they turn it into Trek’s version of Time Tunnel vs Legends of Tomorrow. That’s the only kind of show still missing from Trek canon and one that could have been made as early as 1967… Assignment: Earth!
Gary Seven wasn’t a time traveller. He was from the 20th century.
Then how did he know Humans and Vulcans working together were from the future?
Because Vulcans and humans didn’t work together in the present. The whole issue was that Kirk thought that Seven could be a time traveller, while Seven explained that he really was from the present but aliens kidnapped his ancestors and he was raised on a different planet. Presumably, the Assignment Earth series would have been about Seven and Roberta Lincoln solving problems on 60s Earth. That’s why Kirk and Spock were eventually able to find records of their adventures in the Enterprise computer.
He WAS a time traveler. That was the whole point of the character. He, Isis, and Beta Five traveled through time, fixing problems in history, a la TIME TUNNEL or QUANTUM LEAP. The episode was a pilot for an intended TV show called ASSIGNMENT: EARTH that would have had that very focus.
Gary Seven was the American version of Doctor Who.
I always assumed she would return to the 23rd.
Ash Tyler is supposed to be in it so it looked to be the 23rd. With Section 31 they were always very much about the federation but more specifically the interests of earth. With earth splitting federation and Starfleet I would have thought they would have broken away but who knows
I agree Garth, I don’t mind a S31 show but a 23rd century based one just didn’t do it for me based on what we got in Discovery although the irony is that S31 is much much more deeply based in the 23rd century now considering how much we saw them and how deeply they are (or were) working with Starfleet.
But yes if its about time travel then that could be a lot of fun. Meeting Gary Seven again would be very interesting. It may go against canon slightly but it’s still Discovery, not a huge deal. ;)
it does have a precedent in TOS . All our Yesterdays – Mr. Atoz had to physically prepare the citizens to travel back in time so they would “fit in” and Spock was going feral as a result of not being prepared
TNG’s “Parallels” also established interdimensional jumps….
That is a good point Aztek.
Spock traveled back in time to the Kelvin verse. Did he die of Georgiou Syndrome?
We don’t know, yet, if that was the case!?
The difference may be that Spock was present for the creation of the Kelvin Universe. When he first travelled back, he had travelled back to his own universe, in an earlier time, as he did in the City on the Edge of Forever. In this case, he was really still in his “own” Universe, along with Nero and his crew, as they then began to make the changes that created the new, Kelvin Universe.
Huh-uhh. When Spock came through, it was into an already-changed universe, since Nero arrived long before him and trashed things.
kmart… Then how did Spock get to the Kelvin universe? He was going back in time in his own universe, which still existed (as seen in Star Trek: Picard) after his jump. Shouldn’t he have just ended up in Prime 2259 with no trace of Nero?
Theoretically if you can traverse a black hole, it can connect different parts of the universe or different universes/realms. So maybe a black hole in the real universe is a quasar in the kelvin one.
But disregarding any genuine speculation and going on what we’ve gotten, you have to see that was an orci/abrams/thisotherguyrunningthingsnowwhosenameiforgot thing so logic is not exactly going to be the selling point. And Abrams probably wanted to overwrite the real universe with the Kelvinverse anyway, hence all that stuff between 09 and ID about him wanting all the other merchandise suppressed so that only Kelvin stuff would be available.
He must have grown up on John Byrne Superman comics, where a guy comes in decades later and gets DC to renumber Supes comics at #1 with his, as if everything that went before didn’t exist or matter. But instead of the old ‘he who ignores history is doomed to repeat it,’ these folks coming late to the party would be lucky to be able to repeat the more successful previous history, and instead just parrot the parts they understand and garrote the rest.
I think it was a parallel universe. Like the ones shown on Parallels episode of TNG with Worf. If it was his universe it would of erased all the Prime universe canon like what happened in City on the Edge of Forever. I guess the closest comparison was the 23 rd century Defiant going to the 22nd century Mirror Universe on Enterprise.
Maybe. Or he could have died of being over 150. We don’t know how long half-Vulcans live for. They might not live for as long as full Vulcans.
Incorporating the Kelvinverse is interesting and opens an entirely new option of what’s behind the Burn! If there is a Kelvinverse version of Discovery, it may actually be at the center of that Nebula. Or could the Narada have survived? The Kelvin herself? Red matter? KT Vulcans? Has PrimeSpock in the KT really died as mentioned in Beyond or just disappeared faking his death? What if it’s the KT Enterprise-A? Would Chris Hemsworth do TV? Would Shatner play an aged version of Pine-Kirk aboard the Enterprise-A stranded in that Nebula? Is the mystery tune based on Sabotage? Questions beyond questions…
It would be crazy – and I have been wondering about it since I saw this clip – what if they revive Prime Spock?
There is an orchestral version of SABOTAGE on YouTube: Classical Sabotage (Beastie Boys Orchestral) – Honeycomb Laservision
OMG… Weird! Scientifically speaking. It’s our tune!
Yow!!!! This goes right in with the “not normal” music I listen to all the time. Trippy.
Amazing. It’s from 2012 and they used an image of the Verubin Nebula to tease it :-)
Trippy indeed. We may have just solved the mystery of the Burn. It’s a Shatner-aged Pine-Kirk aboard the USS Enterprise A (KT) trapped in the Verubin Nebula playing Sabotage as a distress signal that fully unloads its destructive potential teased in Beyond by rendering Dilithium across the galaxy inert… Sabotage indeed!
And you know what? It actually sounds believable…
It also explaines why the tune isn’t very complex. It’s just the very basic movement of an old rock song from the 20th century… Given this is a major NuBSG nod (All Along the Watchtower) and given how much they seem to love Sabotage… it all adds up… Hauntingly!
After looking it up, the part that specifically matches the nebula music is when the “Listen all yall its sabotage” is repeated louder and louder near the end of the song. If they give us a Kelvin continuation with that Enterprise-A this season… It’ll make up for how much I personally disliked the first half of Season 1, and if they include Pine, Quinto, Urban, etc. I’ll probably die of happiness. I don’t have my hopes up that it’ll happen, but if it does…
I think the beginning matches more. But that’s just a feeling…
I don’t think Pine will appear. It’s a fine chance of seeing the Shat once more. If Pine-Kirk strands the ENT-A around 90 years before this season in that Nebula, he’d probably look like Shatner when Disco arrives to shroom him out of there…
The question that remains is why an ancient rock song can cause such damage. But that is easily answered. KT’s Big E is from another universe, sending on a slightly different quantum frequency. The shift turns the signal into a knock-out weapon, reacting with this universe’s dilithium in such a destructive way. It’s as shoe-horned as it gets but wasn’t the entire Sabotage solution in Beyond as well? It seems as if my crystal ball is very crystal clear on this one.
Music – dark energy of the narrative.
Pine et al will NOT be appearing on Discovery. ST 4 didn’t happen because Paramount couldn’t make his quote. You think a TV show has the budget? Don’t hold your breath
Could the NCC-1031 Discovery seen in “Calypso” be the Kelvin Universe version of Discovery?
It could. They will need to explain why it doesn’t have detached nacelles and other changes. The current Prime Discovery can’t be the Discovery from Calypso, unless they explain how they stripped it of the upgrades
Why is this a big deal? We already know that the Kelvinverse exists.
Kurtzman has said that no one has guessed the location of the new 31 show. What if it’s in the KU?!
I could be the mirror universe but perhaps after the empire has fallen, perhaps even after the events of DS9.
He didn’t say location, he just said no one guessed the premise of it. But sure it could actually take place in another universe. I would be ALL for that, Kelvin or something new.
We know it exists. It’s the inhabitants of the Prime universe that doesn’t know. Or do they???
Well, we know from the sneak preview that the Prime Universe Federation is aware of the Kelvin Universe and what caused it.
It makes sense that during the Temporal Cold War, Federation agents got intelligence on the major threads or rivers of timestreams and mapped out how close or distant they were from the Prime Universe, and what was the event/incursion that caused a long term and stable split to create a new universe or timestream.
I noted on Facebook that Yon was, in the original clip, wearing a VOY style insignia on an early TNG uniform. But then someone showed me a screencap that had apparently fixed that. Of course, if he’s from the Kelvinverse, that would explain things.
Stupid twist and stolen from Stargate SG 1 !
SciFi is all 75% copy and paste. =D
Not even in the slightest. Why are so many fans so freakin’ melodramatic?
Yeah, well, that franchise can consider it payback for all the plots they stole from ST. :)
entropic cascade failure. When two people exist in the same universe, the visitor molecular structure starts to break down. That seem to be what happen to our Empress.
Not the same. Georgiou and Lorca were fine as long as they were in the same time period as their original MU existence.
More, neither had a double in the universe.
Stargate is not that original.
Agreed SG isn’t that original.
However, Trek has been taking stories from elsewhere and retelling them in the Trek multiverse right from the beginning, often with a Trek twist or insight to underscore a moral or value point. Sometimes later series reprised stories from earlier Trek series, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse.
No one seemed to have an issue with this in episodic Trek.
Serialized Trek may be a bit more risky in borrowing and putting on a Trek spin.
I think that it may be a concern if an entire series were to duplicate a multi-season plot arc. One element or clue in the mystery of the season may be on the edge of problematic, but if it turns out to be a red herring or at least has a novel twist, I don’t see this as out of scope from the kind of thing Star Trek writers have done since the 60s. (Distortion of a distress call due to the nebula seems sufficient to me.)
So, why does the Kelvin-verse still use the S1/S2 TNG uniforms several years later?
Easy: in the Kelvin-verse, a different actor plays Jean-Luc Picard, and since it was Patrick Stewart who complained about the S1/S2 uniforms which resulted in the change, in the Kelvin-verse, with a different actor, this never happens and the uniform continue for several more years (long enough to get a badge update, at least).
Hope this helps make sense of it for you all.
That is also why the Kelvin timeline still uses the combadge first seen in “TNG’s” pilot movie. I can imagine the Kevin timeline, black-haired, dark-skinned. Deanna Troi in formal Starfleet uniform being portrayed by either Vanessa Hudgens or Keke Palmer or Sydney Park–just saying.
But, by god, how *big* would a Kelvin Enterprise-D be?
LOL, maybe the size of the Enterprise J in the Prime universe. ;)
If jumping through time and alternate universes makes you sick, how come Nero and his crew were still in fighting shape after 25 years in the Kelvin timeline? That’s not even getting into the issue that time travel itself can cause an alternate universe (the Narada’s crossing)
It has to be a cure for MUPhillipa. If not, no Section 31.
The level of physical crisis depends on the level of dissonance.
Travelling nearly a millennium is much more than a century, and the Kelvin universe didn’t separate from the Prime all that long before.
I have an adaptation hypothesis that over time, as new cells replace old ones, individuals will eventually become part of a new universe before they are damaged and die. However if the decline is too rapid, the individual will die.
First of all, it’s not time traveling, but altering a timeline that causes a branched off second timeline. This is the current scientific understanding of today and not made up sci fi stuff.
As for why some get sick and some don’t, I’d say it’s mainly based on how far away you are from your original home. The KU was created AFTER the Narada went through the wormhole. When the Narada went through, it was just in the past of the PU. It is when it attacked the Kelvin it created a second timeline. Because timelines are always splitting off due to out choices anyways, this presumably doesn’t cause the sickness on its own. But take someone who acclimated to the KU and then move them to 800 years in the future in the PU, that could cause the sickness.
As for Spock, it’s possible all the time traveling he did when he was younger got his body more used to being able to switch locations.
Nero and his crew travelled back into the past and created an alternate timeline. They didn’t actually travel to an alternate universe like Yor or Georgiou did.
They were the cause of the divergence in the universes and would have been in the “right universe” for them when the PU and KU split.
As time went on in the KU, their physiology would have been changing with the drift just like everyone else in the KU.
It’s Spock who would have been in both the wrong time and place when he arrived in the KU, but as has been already noted the drift wouldn’t have been as significant then.
It’s being implied how FAR Georgiou jumped along with being from an alternative universe that is causing the issue. We have never seen time travel on this extreme level before. Most of time travel on Star Trek goes a few centuries at the most (and usually conveniently to our present day ;)). Nero and Spock just went a little over a century from Prime to Kelvin and maybe why the effects weren’t as bad. Discovery basically traveled a thousands years into the future. The only other human we seen travel those distances were Daniels and Archer and those trips were short visits. And they traveled in the same universe.
Discovery has been in the 32nd century a few months now and supposedly it’s having a much bigger issue on Georgiou in such a short time.
And admittedly this is really the first time Star Trek has suggested people have slight genetic differences in different universes that could creates these problems.
Well, this’ll piss off a few people.
That aside, TNG’s “Parallels” that parallel or mirror universes do exist. Why would someone presume that if you could jump from one to another, why not all of them?
This is likely the setup for the Section 31 show, that Kovich’s “unique interests” have allowed insight allowing him to return her either to her time, dimension, or both. As an aside, maybe Kovich is actually an El-Aurian. Guinan was portrayed as an adult in 19th century America in TNG, so she had to be tickling 800 Terran years of age during TNG….
Edit: That aside, TNG’s “Parallels” established that numerous parallel or mirror universes do exist
True, but they don’t persist Phil.
In the short run, there are a myriad of branching universes as we saw in Parallels.
However, they get windowed down to a smaller number of major timestream, with the smaller sideloops merging back into the major streams.
Coda: I suspect what made the Kelvin universe a major split was the destruction of Vulcan.
If there’s another timeline where Spock was successful and Romulus wasn’t destroyed that would be another big split.
Damn quantum physics…..what they don’t do is overlap. Relative to all the other quantum Phil’s out there, under normal circumstances all I could do is speculate on their existence. All those other Phil’s out there would be living out their own existences, relative to their own perspectives, possibly speculating on my existence.. What Trek has done is rationalize the means to actually experience those alternate realities, if only for a moment…..
The possibilities are limitless. Very exciting stuff. Zach Quinto could fight Ethan Peck. Kelvin Sarek could fight Disco Sarek. Bruce Greenwood could have a wheelchair battle with Anson Mount. Sonequa Martin-Green and her psionic lover Cleveland could adopt Keenser who comes out as asexual. Star Trek is back.
Kelvin Sarek? Not possible without Ben Cross.
Exactly what we *don’t* need. Jumping the shark, indeed.
Sounds more like comics crossover Trek, no thanks (though probably no worse than what they have been doing all along at CBS.)
I’m pretty sure I detect a touch of sarcasm here…
This is probably the greatest post of all time at Trekmovie…..and some people took it literally hehe
Probably rather: “THAT’S A DESASTER!” was the greatest post on trekmovie.
I like that your crossover idea extends little further than an Avengers/Batman Vs Superman style excuse to have everyone punch everyone else.
You’ve also put the image of Disco Sarek in my head.
Strictly speaking.. could the quote from the clip of Kovich not also be interpreted in a different way ?
“Yor here traveled forward from 2379 and across from an alternate universe created by the temporal incursion of a Romulan mining ship.”
From his perspective this could also mean that Yor traveled from the prime universe, and we are and have been in the kelvin universe all this time.. ( or when discovery traveled forward she crossed over to the Kelvin universe )
No, we’re not in the Kelvin Universe, and that’s always been clear.
But to underscore that: planet Vulcan still exists in the 32nd century of the Prime Universe where Discovery takes place, but renamed Ni’Var as the Romulans (who did lose their planet) live on the planet formerly known as Vulcan.
In addition, the DSC Enterprise is far closer to TOS than the KT versions. The KT ship is twice as big and the bridge is is brightly white. Pike would have died by now as shown in STID…
Has it ever been explained why the destruction of one starship and the death of one man, George Kirk, doubled the size of starships 30 years later? It seems like a behind the scenes excuse rather than making any sense in-universe. I’d say the destruction of Vulcan would be big enough a change to bring the Federation onto an entirely different trajectory, but alas that did not happen in 2233 but in Star Trek (2009) when these monster ships were already being built…
I think they ‘explained’ it was related to worrying about super weapons. SMH IDK.
Honestly, I got the feeling from the 2009 movie that ships were always bigger, even before the Narada showed up. Just look at how many shuttles the Kelvin was carrying compared to the TOS (or even TNG) Enterprise.
There is a theory online that I have seen in the past that suggested the Narada had been augmented with Borg technology. We know from STP that the romulans were already reverse engineering Borg technology later. The theory goes that when the Narada’s incursion into the past created the alternate timeline, Starfleet was unable to reverse engineer the technology from the Romulan mining ship, which essentially made them design Starships differently from that point forward in the Kelvin timeline. Admittedly it’s a bit of a stretch, but it just goes to show you that fans are more determined to fit all of this stuff into Star Trek canon than these writers are these days.
That was actually in the ST2009 prequel comics (Countdown), which were intended to be canon. Of course, this is not Star Wars, Trek canon is screen only, and besides that, STP already contradicted some key points in Countdown regarding Data.
Thanks for the clarification. I knew I’d heard about it somewhere but I wasn’t aware it was in a comic. At least I know I didn’t make it up… lol.
I’m highly disappointed in many of these comments… It seems some people want mindless fan-wank instead of a coherent story. I guess that’s why Discovery is what it is…
I’m mostly okay with the notion that Spock and the Narada crew were okay because the Kelvin Universe branched off AFTER their arrival, and wasn’t pre-existing like the Mirror Universe. However, the USS Defiant crossed into the Mirror Universe AND into the past. So wouldn’t it’s molecular structure also become decoherent? Or are we to believe Georgiou glitching out is a biological condition only?
Excellent point Ashley. I find what’s happening interesting but not enough. You get what I mean.
Not at the same time though
Mirror Archer said the Defiant was not only from another universe but also a different time, 100 years in the future. This was all because of it travelling through the interphasic rift.
“However, the USS Defiant crossed into the Mirror Universe AND into the past. So wouldn’t it’s molecular structure also become decoherent?”
Well, as far as the Defiant crew is concerned, that’s exactly what happened to them, didn’t it?
I’m pretty sure the interphasic rift that they travelled through made them insane and they killed each other. But the bodies and the ship were intact. What’s happening to Georgiou at times looks like her molecules are spazzing out, and that simply didn’t happen to the bodies aboard the Defiant, or the Defiant itself. So unless there’s some specific reason for that not to happen to them, then it’s something they overlooked.
That was the gel phasing Ashley.
Georgiou is suffering neurological deterioration.
You’ll have to elaborate on that, because it sounds like I missed something. Regardless, Kovich is describing the molecules fighting their current time and place, so even though that’s causing mental effects, it’s still a molecular reaction, so something physical is happening to her. And the problem with that is, there should have been signs of molecular irregularities on the Defiant, which is something Georgiou should have been aware of. I’m just hoping they address that.
@Ashley: And why should Georgiou aware of that? Why do you think she had any technology that showed her these molecular problems?
Also, the Defiant traveled not so much time back as Georgiou traveled time foreward. So these atomic discrepancys could be an effect of the massive time gap.
Or the molecular problem only cause problems for organic materials.
Or they knew about the molecular problems and the Defiant got destroyed because of it, and they did not related the problems to the crossing.
Georgiou ruled the Terran Empire, and the Defiant was one of their prized assets. In the 100 years that they’ve had it, I’m sure they’ve studied it thoroughly. She has access to every piece of information on it. And the technology to scan molecular structures in exact detail would have been around for quite some time as transporters require molecular and even quantum level scans of the person being transported to be able to reconstruct them. Metallurgical analysis would have been a priority to construct newer better ships based on the Defiant’s technology and materials. The only issue would have been interpreting the results of any anomalous scans, but if there were any issues with molecular stability, it would have at least been well documented.
Now if it only affects organic materials, that would be rather convenient, but I suppose it would explain it away, assuming they didn’t preserve and study the bodies throughout the ship. And the large time gap would also conveniently hand-wave this issue, but that’s also an assumption so we have yet to see if there is a statisfying explanation that will dismiss all this.
The white “spermatazoid” suit that Georgiou complained about contained or provided an “all over” matrix for a gel that enabled analysis at the subatomic level.
Georgiou’s head wasn’t covered but was within the field of the analysis. So, I took that weird distortion as happening to the gel not Georgiou herself.
But I must admit when I saw it the first time in a sneak preview, without the “special diagnostic suit” context of the actual episode, I interpreted the situation as happening to Georgiou’s own body.
But, again, the Defiant only went back a century or so. It’s possible that the effect is based on the temporal “distance”.
Yes, it’s not just time traveling from another universe it’s the LENGTH of time that is also a big factor. Both Prime Spock and the U.S.S Defiant just went a century through time from the PU. Georgiou jumped a thousand years from the MU. That’s a huge difference.
Well to date Kurtzman team hasn’t pulled off a coherent story. There has been a bit of fan wanking going on lately by Kurtzman an gang through, in Picard, Discover an Lower Decks, a lot in the last one and the fans loved every second of it.
Kovich might be Department of Temporal Investigations, he dresses drab like Lucsly and Dulmur from the DTI in DS9
Can’t be, Kovich has a sense of humor.
The Kelvin timeline is mentioned here… Fascinating!
Time travel and hopping universes. He knows what’s happening to her. Now we are going somewhere.
This entire thing is so amazingly exciting!! THIS is why I love Star Trek so much, you can literally do anything!
We have a Temporal Agent from the TNG era in the Kelvin universe jumping to the Prime Universe. That line just opens so many crazy doors your brain could melt over the possibilities! And if Kovich is indeed a Section 31, it goes into overdrive!
I’m just SO excited over the possibilities. It doesn’t just imply the TCW was just a Prime universe issue but it implies it was a multiverse war. And of course that was always partly implied on Enterprise because the Sphere Builders came from another dimension themselves (which could just basically be a euphemism for a parallel universe) and were part of the TCW which was using their knowledge on the timeline to infiltrate the Prime universe. But of course we know they couldn’t just live in the Prime without altering it first because where they came from their laws of physics were completely different from ours.
So in many ways, Enterprise has established these ideas in canon. The Sphere Builders could just be one faction of many temporal agents in other universes and in fact the entire Temporal Wars didn’t have to originate from the Prime Universe at all but somewhere else completely.
And of course to add to this crazy theory, Section 31 (if that’s what Kovich is) could’ve gotten deeply involved with stopping the war and these agents in the 31st century. Daniels could’ve always just been a version of Section 31 in that time. But they gone from just clamping down on Romulans or rogue Andorians and now their mandate has literally expanded to both space and time itself.
I know, I’m getting ahead of myself! But Kurtzman has been hinting we don’t know what the S31 premise is really about. But maybe this is a show about either the multiverse, time travel or BOTH! It could even deal with the TCW again (maybe we will FINALLY know who Future Guy is ;)).
And take note, the next episode was written by Bo Yeon Kim and Erika Lippoldt, the two writers who is creating the Section 31 show. I think they are setting up the show in a huge way.
So even if Georgiou does end up going back to the 23rd century, I doubt she is going to just be staying in the Alpha Quadrant. She may be jumping to a bunch of places including the MU again.
If any of this turns out to be half true, they are setting up some crazy things and I didn’t think it would get any crazier than seeing a ship jumping a thousand years in time permanently. Can’t wait until next week!
Thanks Tiger2, I hadn’t seen that Boey and Erika wrote the next one, but that’s key as they are co-showrunners for the S31 series.
This will not only give us a sense of the storyline and context (yay multiverse! we hope), but also how they are altering or even redeeming Georgiou.
We actually haven’t seen them write for Michelle Yeoh in a while. Their episodes in season two focused on other characters.
Now, the S31 series may be morphing a bit, and a third showrunner has been added, but my suspicion is that CBS wanted to wait to get the fan/audience reaction to what we’re going to see as the backdoor pilot before finalizing the series for greenlighting.
“how they are altering or even redeeming Georgiou”
The trajectory they outlined with this scene (that only the gap of time and dimensions is to blame and that it simply makes people fatally sick, not replacing them by their prime versions or other outlandish theories that have been raised) suggests they see this as THE way to transport the character away from Discovery to whichever setting they have devised for S31 – NOT to alter the fundamentals of the character.
In fact, none of the interviews with writers and EPs so far has suggested they are bothered by this aspect in the slightest, on the contrary calling the character “fun” or “delicious”. That they have doubled down on this in S3 (“I will poison your children” laugh line, anyone?) suggests their idea for S31 is “sassy badass”, not “redempted antihero”…
And, as I continue to refuse lionizing or even paying respect to people solely based on gender or race rather than the merit of their achievements, I will continue to be highly critical of these writers or EP Kadin for their shallowness in treating a toxic character like Space Hitler that stands against every value they claim to hold dear, as comedic relief AND “symbol of diversity”.
Yeah I think this two parter is clearly going to give us an idea where the S31 show is going. And so far I am loving the implications. If I have to only choose one, time travel or multiverse, multiverse all the way. Again, as MUCH as Star Trek has done with every crazy sci fi trope out there (especially with time travel), there are still a few they haven’t done all that much with and the multiverse is one of them; even though it’s been established literally since the first season of TOS. But outside of a few scant episodes of we seen of the multiverse that DOESN’T involve the mirror universe, it’s been oddly ignored. To this day Parallels is the only episode that has even attempted to show how big and crazy it could get. But basically it’s really only MU and of course the KU for the new films that had any kind of focus of it.
But I will say though, although everyone is excited about the idea of the Kelvin universe, the funny thing for me is I wasn’t really suggesting it would actually be part of the show going forward (but would LOVE it). I honestly just think it’s a fun reference and nothing more. I think it was mentioned for several reasons. A. to FINALLY say it outright that the Kelvin universe is indeed canon and part of the rest of Trek. No it never needed to be said, it’s always been clear it’s canon but you know some of these fans. ;) And goes to the other issue. B. that the Kelvin universe DIDN’T erase the prime universe, it was always it’s own universe. Bob Orci stated on this very website back in 2008 it was it’s own separate universe and yet we still have (or had) people claiming the PU got erased when that was never the case. C. It’s just fun to do lol.
Now that said, I would love to be proven wrong and we get more than just a reference and actual crossover at some point, even going to that universe. I mean I would love to see what the KU is like by the 24th century. There were already major differences between the universes in the 23rd century, by the 24th the differences could be off the charts.
And if Kovich is a Section 31 agent then that’s going to just throw the lid off of the possibilities. For all we know Kovich could be talking to agents in other centuries or even universes. He could be Georgiou’s ‘boss’ even if she does go back to the 23rd century in the same way Daniels was helping Archer. But this would obviously be more direct missions.
Tiger, to use a Vulcan colorful metaphor, I think we may be up for some major WTFs next week! ;)
LOL, definitely true! I think we are in for a ride.
Plot service aside, why would someone from that era have hade the jump? I thought the major players in the Temporal War were from later centuries.
We saw Future Guy from the Temporal War messing in the 22nd century and bringing Archer forward briefly.
As well, there have been many transits from the MU even though it clearly diverged from the Prime Universe much earlier.
Given the number of time “incursions” in TNG, DS9 and Voyager, not to mention the Bureau of Temporal Investigations already being canon for that era, I find it odd that you’re suggesting it extraordinary that one ill-fated 24th century KU captain may have been pulled into the Temporal War and moved both across universes and time periods.
But you’re only thinking about the Prime universe. We don’t know how the Temporal War would play out in other universes and those time eras. We still have no idea all the species involved in it. We only know the few that were seen in Enterprise and even with that every season more new species popped up that were somehow involved in it.
So to answer your question, I have no idea lol. But that could be the point and that TCW was fought in different time eras and universes. For what gain, yeah, no clue. But maybe we are going to start to find out now IF S31 show will be involved with that.
What if Kovich is really Flynn (TOS “Requiem for Methuselah”)?
“What if Kovich is really Flynn”
That would be one hell of a crossover, but I guess anything is possible after the presidential pardon!
Flynn started aging normally after he left Earth, he should be long gone by the 32nd Century, unless he built himself an android body.
I’ll start by saying the character of Kovich is intriguing and perfectly cast.
But that say — really, do we need to introduce the Kelvin universe into all of this? The Mirror Universe is overused as it is; I would really prefer that they ring-fenced the Kelvin films off, as JJ Abrams’ own tangential take on the Star Trek universe.
Discovery’s time and universe jumping is complicated enough as is. I might be wrong — but equally, this could be the moment when Star Trek jumped the shark.
“I’ll start by saying the character of Kovich is intriguing and perfectly cast.”
Absolutely! And I have no doubt Cronenberg was cast purely on merit given that it must bother the hell out of many people that THIS KIND of actor is yet again stealing the show after seasons 1 and 2… I almost see something systemic about it ;)
I think Kurtzman an gang have been given instructions to make the star trek universe cohesive and fix the mess that made when the film and tv series rights were separated. We might even see the Kelvin timeline destroyed. An some attempt to recon the Discovery period to bring that era technology back into line with the original TOS.
If this is the case, it could be another reason why Star trek 4 have been delayed. They no longer have any interest in doing more Kelvin timeline stories. An instead are investing everything into the prime time line.
There was no mess. They were simply two series running parallel to each other.
What it does allow Kurtzman to do, however, is integrate elements he helped create back in 2009 into official Star Trek canon and clarify those elements. On more than one occasion he and Bob Orci tried (and I mean really, really tried) to explain that the timeline introduced in 2009 did not overwrite the timeline introduced in the original series. What we saw in 2009 was a timeline running parallel to the events of TOS.
Into Darkness also helped explain why technology had advanced so rapidly after the death of Kirk’s father. Section 31 was aware of Khan which means they were aware of much, much more.
I’m still not entirely convinced that Discovery is in the Prime Universe. They’re in the future but whose future?
Vulcan exists in this future whereas it was destroyed in the Kelvin timeline.
Exactly! It was never a ‘mess’. It was simply two universes running side by side of each other, the Prime and the Kelvin. It’s literally no different then having the Prime and Mirror universe run side by side of each other.
I just don’t understand why some fans ever had trouble with this??? Especially since no one has a problem with the MU. It’s the same thing. The MU is just more changed but it’s literally the same characters we have in the PU (and this case, the same actors as well ;)). We have seen different facets of it in every century now from the 22nd to the 24th. It basically has it’s own mythology.
That’s all the Kelvin universe is. It is its own thing with it’s own internal set of circumstances and history. It doesn’t need to be ‘erased’ no more than the MU does. Nothing needs to be ‘fixed’, the changes there happened because someone from the Prime Universe (in this case Kirk) influence changed its circumstances more by the 24th century just like Nero changed elements of the KU once he attacked the Kelvin in that universe and now it has a different future projection from the prime.
The only difference between the two is that it was made very very clear from the outset the MU was indeed a parallel universe where as they just danced around it in the 09 movie and we had 11 bizarre years of confusion ever since. I’m guessing both Orci and Kurtzman just wish they made it clear cut from the beginning and we wouldn’t be talking about it today.
Well it looks like Kurtzman can finally do that, make it clear as day they are just two separate universes with their own separate canon. If anything now they can explore the Kelvin universe just like they do the MU and expand on its canon. IF they wanted to.
Tiger2, it still seems pretty clear that the Kelvin and Prime Universe were one in the same up until the Romulan miners were thrown back in time by the Romulan supernova.
When Kirk’s father died and the Kelvin was destroyed that began a branching that created to significantly different time streams. It still might have been possible to merge back the Kelvin timeline back in though (think of a stream of water splitting around a big rock).
However, once the planet Vulcan was destroyed there was no way the Prime and Kelvin universes could be reconciled into a single history. So, the two timelines became increasingly further apart as the centuries went on.
According to Bob Orci, the events of the two universes basically played out the same but it WAS it’s own universe even before Nero showed up. In fact, the original first scene of the movie showed Spock being born before the Narada showed up. They decided to delete that scene because they wanted the movie to start with more action.
You probably seen this clip before, but just in case:
If they kept that scene in the beginning of the film and THEN showed the scene of the Narada coming through the black hole and attacking the Kelvin, this would be another conversation people wouldn’t still be arguing about ten years later. ;)
Fair enough, but Orci and the gang who wrote the Kelvin universe movies weren’t given authority to rewrite the physics of the Star Trek multiverse at that level.
Just as well that the scene was left out.
And it also demonstrates why the movie people can’t just do their own thing without coordination with the television franchise. It messes up the brand.
I do love a nice bit of multiverse fun but there are some things that dont make sense about the Kelvin reality being a 1:1 until the Narada incursion.
Temporal incursions directly into the past havent created split realities before. Yesterday’s Enterprise, Children of Time and E2 for example. And all of Voyager’s temporal shenanigans.
There are a number of predestination paradoxes that would unravel making it impossible for the timeline to reach 2233 as it did in the Prime.
Not to mention the use of 0s in registry numbers is something that wasnt the case.
The past would have to have changed as well if it were a direct travel backwards. Unless the Kelvin universe was a separate universe all along on a parallel course with the Prime universe but then the incursion caused it to veer off into a much more distinct world.
Because until the 09 movie, the other Trek shows were simply following the Back to the Future type of time travel, ie, change things in their universe.
The Kelvin universe was ALWAYS just another parallel universe just like the Mirror universe. We in fact seen Kirk veer into that universe and influenced it where terrans went from rulers to slaves by the 24th century. The only difference is he didn’t travel back in time in the MU when he first went.
As far as why Spock and Nero traveled back in time to another universe, this has always been my head canon (along with actual scientific theory) but they didn’t really ‘time travel’ the way the other shows did it, but really just traveled to another parallel universe via a black hole. There are theories out there that suggest black holes could lead to other universes or dimensions. Of course that theory is about as ‘firm’ as all the crazy time travel theories out there, but yeah it’s there lol. But there is also a theory that black holes can lead to different time eras as well. In other words it can do both: travel both to a different universe but also lead to different times different from the universe you left.
So that can explain WHY the form of time travel was so different from before, because they were traveling through a black hole. And it keeps all the other time travel rules of former Trek shows (and Discovery now) the same as it’s always been.
I really wish they just gave Spock a few technobabble lines about this (especially him being a scientist and all and knew parallel universes already existed) but they didn’t want to scare off the newbies when making the movie and have it sound too complicated. Now the ‘newbies’ have moved on long ago and it’s the same old long time fans still trying to make sense of it. But that always made the most sense.
I also think the KU was slightly different from the PU but befor Nero arrived, just with a lot of similarities. That could’ve explained why Khan suddenly looks white with a British accent but that’s for a different thread. ;)
Her name is BURNham and the event is called The Burn.
You don’t think it’s actually called “The Burnham” but the last three letters fell out over time, like how “Caution Live Animals” became “CaLima” in Burton’s Planet of the Apes remake?
Debunked several times already. And it would be an utterly stupid move from the creators …
In the international versions e.g German “The burn” is translated as “Der Brand” which is the correct literal translation.
Consider what the call the Federation in the 32nd Century. Anything is possible…
Speaking of which, it’s one of the initial season setups they quickly dropped again (like every season). The Orion baddie was the perfect occasion to reinforce the idea of ‘Pidgin’ being spoken outside the Federation and former member worlds, but she said specifically ‘Federation’ and not ‘V’draysh’.
It’s one of the many disadvantages of the new style of production for ‘serialized peak tv’. They write and produce this stuff over months instead of weeks with Classic Trek, while we still watch in a weekly mode so these errors become all the more glaring!
But if they named it due to her, wouldn’t that just imply they knew who and what caused it. ;)
But they clearly don’t. So no, that makes zero sense on its head, and yet….
“So no, that makes zero sense on its head, and yet”
And yet, that is what Discovery always does (being too high on its own ‘shrooms)
Tyler is Voq!
Yeah, I’m certainly not going to defend all the idiotic things this show has done. I was completely not convinced Tyler was Voq because everything about the idea was just so stupid and totally unbelievable. And even after being proven wrong, I still remain completely right on my reasoning. ;)
That just felt like something torn out of a really bad soap opera.
All of a sudden, I’m much mire interested in what a Section 31 show could be.
Actually Kovich might just be the “future guy”. He certainly knows many things about timelines and universes and these might be his “special interests”.
I always figured Future Guy was a Romulan. At one point, Brannon Braga suggested it was Jonathan Archer, which made no sense to me.
Honestly the Romulan angle just made more sense. I have NO idea why they would want it to be Archer. But a Romulan from the future trying to change the dynamics of the Romulan War a few years before it was suppose to start and thereby trying to stop the Federation from forming from the beginning giving the Romulans the dominant force of the Alpha quadrant just makes too much sense I guess.
Your show is literally suppose to be about the forming of the Federation and the Romulan War is the catalyst to the whole thing. Why not tie the two together from the beginning via TCW? This show could’ve been much more popular if that was the angle they were going with it on day one.
But Kovich doesn’t seem evil. He clearly wants to keep the Federation in tact. Future Guy entire purpose was to try and destroy it before it even started.
But are we sure Kovich isn’t evil. Remember Discovery writers love to toy with the character and changing them throughout the run of the season.
True, anything is possible. But many were convinced he was the one that made Georgiou that way in the first place when he had nothing to do with it. But he wouldn’t be the first double agent in Star Trek.
Likeable is not disjunctive to evil.
I like this.
I have to give some credit to Michelle Paradise. Since she is onboard, there is more cohesion into these stories, Discovery is getting much better this Season.
I like there is more harmony between the crew and new characters, also inserting Discovery into the Star Trek Universe. Unification III was a surprise and now the possibility of the Kelvin Universe, looks promising.
I don’t like this whole multiverse thing much.
Also the temporal war.
It’s too difficult to write a logical story for all of this.
But more importantly all of our loved characters aren’t unique anymore but just one among many versions.
And by the way wouldn’t it be Q’s responsibility to prevent such a mess from happening?
Since when is Q responsible?
The Q we know didn’t act like he has.
But always thought they are sort of guardians of the universe itself and wouldn’t be amused if all the known timelines and the multiverse is in danger of collapsing.
And you can’t argue they already knew how it was going to end because it was a temporal war and therefore the future was part of it and in flux
Hey, how do you know the Q arent watching and observing. Maybe the very last scene of the Kurtzman era Trek would be Q coming, snapping his finger and saying “the test is over and humanity was a failure”.
Well the Temporal War has already happened, not much can be done about that now. If Discovery didn’t travel so forward in time, it could’ve been ignored (like it basically was until just this season). Now it looks like they are dealing with it, which I’m happy about personally.
And the Q continuum aren’t Gods. In fact they seem to have their ‘prime directive’ in a way and not change or save the universe willy nilly. Think about the episode True Q and Amanda.
Never understood why they introduced this topic. ST ENT well done would have enough story material how the Federation was founded and about the Romulan War.
Actually it was the network that demanded they come up with something that had a futuristic story line to it because they were afraid fans wouldn’t just like an all out prequel and wanted them to still be able to tell stories post-22nd century. That’s what they came up with.
I think if the studio just let them do what they originally wanted, it would’ve been a completely different show in so many ways. But UPN apparently just never fell in love with it being a prequel and always wanted something closer to TNG.
And then of course they tried to make an all out prequel with Discovery….strike two. ;D
Maybe SNW will be the first one that will actually just be a prequel without more ‘future’ storylines added, but don’t hold your breath.
I haven’t watched the clip (preferring to remain spoiler-free until Thursday) — but I hope that the “Romulan mining ship” reference is a wink and a nod; those who liked the JJ movies can read into what they will, and for everyone else, a random Romulan mining ship is just a mining ship
Didn’t Tasha Yar cross over dimensions and also go back in time? And she wound up having a baby. Guess the writers missed that episode.
Haven’t seen any of this season yet, but going by comments here, how do we know that Space Hitler’s condition isn’t just a fancy form of space syphills? The Cronenberg guy could know she was an early s31er and be making this crap up to justify to her and DSC crew the need to send her back in time.
In the TOS episode “All Our Yesterdays,” people’s bodies were prepared for their new time by the atavachron. When it becomes clear that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy went back in time accidentally and were NOT prepared by the atavachron, they’re told that they can’t survive in the past and must return to the time from which they came.
Whatever preparation the atavachron does, perhaps Kovich knows how to do it.
That makes sense. If I recall, they travelled back well over a thousand years in that episode, which could explain why they needed to be prepared even though they weren’t going to a different universe.
Kirk only went back around 600 years, but Spock and McCoy went back 5,000 years.
Q: Can this show get even shittier?
A: Hell yes.
The Kelvin universe now. Good god.
Yeah… I know… Burnham-verse meets Kelvin-verse
Well for haters of nuTrek, it does sound like a reunion made in hell lol.
I just don’t get why anyone is suprized.
There are three main timelines in the Trek multiverse, and Discovery is now on the far side of a Temporal War. Why wouldn’t we expect to hear about that the 32nd century Federation is aware of these two other major timelines at least?
Not surprised. Just aghast. As usual.
Yes, we completely agree.
For me, this is literally why I was so excited when I heard Discovery was going so far into the future, because they can now do things exactly like this. No one should be surprised 800 years after Spock landed there that they ultimately wouldn’t find out about it even if they still don’t know what happened to Spock himself. And of course they may know exactly what happened to Spock by now and it’s just classified (this is still Discovery ;)).
This is why so many people wanted a Trek show go farther into the future, you just have a much bigger sandbox to play in now. When Discovery was in the 23rd century the only show that it could draw from was Enterprise (and The Cage lol). Now it can draw from that and every every show or film that has ever existed and we are seeing that happen in multiple ways this season and it’s only been 8 episodes so far.
I think the people making this show now is just having a field day. Nothing is truly off limits anymore.
It is awesome and hilarious that David Cronenborg – who seems to have resisted the pull of franchises in his own work – would be one of Trek’s temporal masters.
My most significant fret in this whole thing is that Cronenberg’s role might not be planned for more than this season.
He is the perfect ambiguous temporal master for Trek. And like Anson Mount’s Pike, the more we see of Kovich, the more we realize that this is exactly the kind of complex and riveting character Discovery needs to give it gravitas.
MORE CRONENBERG PLEASE!
Only people in the U.S. can see this preview I guess.
Try The Ready Room with Wil Wheaton posted last Thursday on the official StarTrek.com website.
It shouldn’t be geoblocked, and the global trailer for the upcoming available is also in the “latest videos” section.
We definitely have no issues with accessing videos on the StarTrek.com site in Canada.
Auf treknews.de kann man ihn von Europa aus sehen.
Crossing another universe ane jumping through time, leading to illness already happened before in TOS. At least it was explained that way in ENT when the Defiant disappeared and appeared in the mirror universe in the past.
I thought the mirror universe Tholians just had the Defiant crew killed. It could still explain the weird interphase effect that was happening to Kirk though.
The crew of the Defiant went mad from the “Interphase” between universes and killed one another.
I wonder if temporal psychosis from Voyager is related to this.
Now Star Trek Discovery starts to rise my attention. I’m intrigued.
Kovich refers to Yor as a time soldier, so the S1 TNG uniform could have been part of whatever mission he was on when he jumped to the future.
What if…there exists a mirror-universe of the kelvin timeline?