‘Star Trek: Picard’ Showrunner Explains Season 3’s Big Villain, And The Fate Of [SPOILER]

Episode 9 finally revealed what’s up with Jack in season 3 of Star Trek: Picard, and how it all ties into the real villain for the season. Showrunner Terry Matalas has answered some key questions to help clarify some of the big reveals in “Vox.” We have gathered some of his interview and social comments along with more details to help make sense of episode 9 before heading into the season (and series) finale.

Why the Borg?

There were a lot of fan theories running up to episode 9, which revealed the big bad pulling the strings behind the Changelings was the Borg. Speaking to ScreenRant, showrunner Terry Matalas explained why they brought the Borg back again, instead of using another villain like DS9’s Pah Wraiths:

No [Pah Wraith’s were not considered], it was always a story about legacy. About what we pass on. About parents and children. Pah-wraiths are neat, but that would have come out of nowhere. There is nothing organic about the story we were telling to suggest that other than a connection to DS9 with the Changelings.

Matalas also clarified Jack’s connection to the Borg:

Jack is a kind of evolution. A controlling Borg transmitter gene. Locutus was kind of a receiver. So Jack’s gene can control the receiver gene placed inside the others. The genes placed into the transporter system.

Ed Speleers in “Vox”

Bringing back the Queen

“Vox” featured the Borg Queen, but you only saw her from behind. The voice was provided by Alice Krige who originated the role Star Trek: First Contact, however, the queen was played by actress Jane Edwina Seymour (credited as “Borg Queen body double”). Speaking to Collider, showrunner Terry Matalas explained what’s going on:

It is Alice Krige as the Borg Queen. You will see in the finale, though, it is voiced by Alice Krige, but the Borg Queen does not look good when you see her. Janeway did a number on them the last time we saw them, and there’s a reason she needs Jack.

The most recent season of Prodigy showed how following the series finale of Star Trek: Voyager, the Borg collective was not in good shape, and this has also been covered in some dialogue in the first two seasons of Picard.

Ashlei Sharpe Chestnut as Sydney La Forge, Jin Maley as Ensign Esmar and Mica Burton as Ensign Alandra La Forge, all Borgified in “Vox”

Jurati Borg are a whole different thing

Some fans were wondering how the Borg Queen and collective featured in “Vox” related to the collective led by the Jurati Borg Queen seen in the season two finale. Matalas clarified that the Jurati Borg are “an alternate faction,” pointing out how earlier in the third season (in episode 4) Shaw explained this when he said, “Forget all that weird shit on the Stargazer, the real Borg are still out there.”

He also confirmed that Alison Pill will not be returning to play Queen Jurati in the series finale.

Death by Borg was Shaw’s fate

Matalas also talked about the death of Captain Liam Shaw, and how his backstory of being one of the lucky survivors from the Battle of Wolf 359 was reflected in how he died:

It was always part of Shaw’s arc to die at the hands of the Borg. It was always going to be, from the beginning, how he went out… It’s his worst nightmare, but one he faces heroically, and he gets to be the one who sends them on the escape pod. They are the lucky ones this time.

Even though Shaw is dead, “there has always been a plan for this character to be part of the spin-off,” however he didn’t offer any details about how. He also pointed out the Star Trek: Legacy spinoff concept is not currently in development.

Actor Todd Stashwick posted a video on Twitter, which appeared to be him saying goodbye, at least for now.

What’s up with Vadic’s hand?

Matalas also confirmed on Twitter that when Vadic was talking to “The Face,” she was talking to the Queen and the Collective and fans should stay tuned for more about this connection.

A closer look at Borg makeup

Speaking of the Borg, Mica Burton (Alandra La Forge) shared some photos of her Borgified makeup.

The third and final season of Picard premiered on Thursday, Feb. 16, 2023, exclusively on Paramount+ in the U.S., and Latin America, and on February 17 Paramount+ in Europe and elsewhere, with new episodes of the 10-episode-long season available to stream weekly. It also debuted on Friday, Feb. 17 internationally on Amazon Prime Video in more than 200 countries and territories. In Canada, it airs on Bell Media’s CTV Sci-Fi Channel and streams on Crave.

Keep up with news about the Star Trek Universe at TrekMovie.com.

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Hoping for the best given we’ve now basically got zombies and Palpatine’s remote-controlled huge fleet…lol

Don’t get me wrong, I am enjoying the fan service, and have teared up a couple of times — but the story and writing for the second half of this season show little difference from the kind of stuff many of us complained about in the JJA Trek movies

This is Star Wars-like for sure. I mean, Jack in basically a Skywalker, and we have to hope that he makes the right decision this week and picks the light over the dark side to give us the Ep 10 win we are all expecting.

The badly written Shaw killing is also egregious. Having him redeemed through death, rather than through his own change of character, is cheap and lazy. Which might otherwise be OK if he hadn’t been such an incredible character. More than anything THAT’S why I hope he’s not dead.

There’s also a lot of inadvertently bad social allegory too, despite some really promising setups for good ones. That everyone is ignoring the lazy and bad writing because they got a healthy helping of nostalgia is laughable.

Look, the show is good, but what has been so supremely frustrating is that it had potential to be so much better.


a lot of people just disagree with you.

Lets see, where have we seen that before? Yeah, Kirk in STID. Nanoprobes, magic blood, does it really matter?

I’m baffled as to why people think he was an incredible character. But to each his/her own.

Because he was complex.

He was “the everyman Captain” who wasn’t the Kirk or Picard perfect Captain, was kind of jerk with a heart, and was unwillingly thrust into a very uncomfortable situation, but never gave up. I love this character!

You want to serve under Captain Shaw who thinks the Borg are active and Picard might be compromised, or Captain Picard who despite being assimilated and saved will shoot you to save you the pain of being assimilated while actually being compromised?

To follow from Bremmon, I don’t think liking a character means we have to like them as a person. He’s a qualified captain, but a jerk. It doesn’t mean I’d want to be his friend, but he’s a great character, and fun to watch.

Some of the most compelling characters in fiction are bad people, anti-heroes, or selfish jerks.

the same thing that made Jellico such a great foil. He wasn’t evil or wicked, but he was hard.

Of course. (If you can’t handle watching people mostly being jerks, or worse, definitely stay away from HBO’s “Succession.” But you’ll be missing a great show.)

I’m ready for Succession in Space. Look at the praise Galactica got for basically solid military thriller writing, albeit in the mouths of geniuses. Picard as Logan Roy is not the worst starting place for a sequel.

So because people disagree with me, I should change my opinion? Hey if that’s how you operate, whatevs, but I’m not that soft.

holding out hope that it was badly written / lazy purposely to foreshadow his resurrection

There is that hope, but Matalas seems to be proud of his death for concluding his arc. And I’m not going to lie: there is some element of poetry to it. I might not be so critical had he not ALSO required a redemption arc. Redemption through death is just a poor trope.

Fridging for character development is always a lousy choice.

Terry Matalas doesn’t get a pass from me on that.

Wish this is a prank for a surprise this week. Really wanted to see a change of character. Dealing with Seven and Picard, with the Borg again, thought he was able to “evolve.”

My only hope at this point is that this leads to a good story: Seven puts Shaw in stasis, and has to go on some kind of special mission to save his life, which plays out in the first story of a spin-off (ala Search for Spock).

This could allow Shaw to be redeemed after, and give Seven some learning experiences as well.

I agree with many of yours and others comments in this thread. I was gutted when Shaw went down and hope as others have stated, that this a prank of sorts and that he’ll be back next week.

Having watched his death scene again it ends somewhat abruptly, with a close up of Seven who looks like she is just about to do something. Wishful thinking on my part no doubt but he was for me a season highlight and I’d hoped his redemption would be to see how others do things (i.e. Picard and Riker et al) and modify his command style accordingly, such that he goes from good to great.

Look, as much as I’d love to see the character live on, I can accept his death if it serves the story. But his death as-is didn’t serve the story. Not only did it do a disservice to the character — who didn’t get a chance to actually earn his redemption through a change of character, he didn’t even choose to sacrifice himself in some kind of noble way, he just got shot randomly.

Good approach. Would enjoy that type of outcome. Can’t wait to watch what Matalas has reserved for us.

wait what if she saves him by Borgifying him, a bit. That would be a tremendous melodrama

Also creating a bond of debt that Shaw can never repay. It would blow his mind and humble his heart once he figures out what Seven did for him…you know that would be some fantastic stuff for the actors

Redemption through death is just a poor trope.

Welp, that explains Christianity.

I agree with you. The first episode didn’t do a lot for me, but I thought this was really cooking from episode 2 to 7. 8 was a mixed bag (the Riker/Deanna stuff was fantastic, the Worf reunion was great, everything else…not so much) and then it just came to a screeching halt in the last episode. I’m dubious of the finale offering us much of anything remotely coherent in terms of wrapping up this plot. If they all make it out alive and end things on a hopeful and happy note, then I’ll be happy.

There have been some frankly bizarre and lazy choices. Everybody’s fine with Beverly’s choice about disappearing with Jack and that weak excuse? Picard was mad for a minute and then it was fine. The stuff about Riker and Deanna’s daughter has been brought up so many times everywhere else that I’m guessing I don’t have to mention that again. It’s frankly a batshit choice given everything they’ve gone on about in regards to the son. The fact they drug out the Jack stuff for nine episodes and then did a nonsensical villain switch with only one episode left. Everything involving whatever happened between Raffi and Seven. Shaw dying is a prime example of lazy writing. I don’t mind that he died, but the moment between him and Seven was lazy. The weird rewrites and retcons involving season 1 and season 2 are also impossible to keep with at this point.

For everyone wanting Matalas to take over everything Trek related, I think it’s interesting the episodes people have the most issues with are the ones he wrote alone and/or directed alone and the ones people complain about the most in regards to pandering. That does not fill me with confidence that he has what it takes to do a season of Trek where he can’t hide behind TNG.

I’m mostly enjoying the show too. I think it’s a good season. The nostalgia and fan service and what does work is enough for me to over look a lot of what doesn’t. But it’s frankly lost a lot of steam in the home stretch and I can’t help but feel like we were robbed of a season that could have been a lot better.

Great post — I agree with all of this!

I also think it’s borderline insane for us to be getting seemingly important story beats and plot points from interviews Terry Matalas gives.

Everything we know about Raffi and Seven’s breakup- learned from interviews. Why Shaw picked Seven to be his first officer- interviews. How Seven even got in Starfleet at this point- interviews. Seemingly important backstory about Beverly for the past 20 years- interviews. Geordi’s wife- interviews. Kestra is in Starfleet now even though she’s like 15- interviews. Oh but her parents aren’t worried about her being a Borg because the part of Starfleet she’s at is actually the one safe area- interviews. Where Elnor is and why Raffi and Seven don’t seem concerned- interviews. Why we don’t see the Borg Queen’s face- interviews. How the changelings met the Borg- interviews

Sure would have been nice for them to throw a line or two about literally any of this on the actual show so people who don’t faithfully read everything he says aren’t left baffled about certain things.

I will defend some of that, in the sense that a lot of that isn’t important. Kestra, Geordi’s wife, even why Shaw picked Seven, not really important.

But your larger point of show not tell — and even if you’re gonna tell, TELL IT ON SCREEN — is definitely valid.

Like you, I found the first half of the season SO promising. At this point, a truly GREAT finale will only salvage it so much. It still won’t hold a candle to S1 of SNW.

Fair enough and I agree with all that.

Obviously some of it is stuff we should presumably be picking up on by reading between the lines onscreen. If Riker and Deanna aren’t worried about Kestra onscreen, then we shouldn’t be. Same with Picard, Seven, and Raffi about Elnor. We can figure out Shaw dislikes the Borg by his conversation with Picard and Jack. You can assume Geordi’s wife is just some woman and she’s safe at home. That’s all easy enough if you think about it. It’s not super important like you said, but I still think a line or two across the episodes would have been nice. Whatever though.

However, I think it’s a failure though on the show to convey some of that to the audience when half the comments after the show are people continually confused by stuff like the above complaints and plot holes. The show shouldn’t make it so vague or nonsensical that people then spend the week between episodes wondering about some of this stuff. Most people aren’t sitting around doing deep thoughts on this.

I don’t have to have everything telegraphed to me in bold letters onscreen, but at least make the plot and stuff you do show so that I’m not sitting here wondering about holes in this story. Maybe it’s just me, but I’m still wondering how this in all apparently taking place right after season 2 and Seven is now not only in Starfleet, but first officer. That’s just one example.

I don’t think it’s going to touch SNW. Like I said, I’m mostly happy with the season up till about episode 8. The nostalgia and seeing them together again is definitely going a long way for me. I’m just hoping the finale ends and leaves them all in a happy and satisfying place if this is the end. However, I’ll be sad that 2-7 showed so much promise only for it to fall apart at the end.

agreed, though it’s been standard behavior since chabon in S1

That’s a fair point, but I do agree with Alpha that you can’t be bogged down in too many details when trying to tell a story efficiently at a good pace. The exposition in this show has been clumsy enough as it is without having the breathily mention where every friend and relative is in the middle of a crisis, for example.

And has been mentioned, this was a problem in Picard season 1 also – we would see all the loving detail and thought Chabon put into things like Romulan backstories in his posts, but none of it was onscreen, to the detriment of many characters and the world building.

Thank you for articulating many of my thoughts in a way I failed to (I’m aware I’m not the most eloquent speaker).

Another bother is Shelby. While I’ve never been a huge fan of the character, and didn’t feel her death was much of a loss, it did seem so pointless, taking a strong, independent woman with agency and bringing her back just to unceremoniously off her. And that was AFTER Riker badmouthed her, negating whatever respect he and we the audience had gained for her by the end of BOTW.

Now, maybe the criticism was right from him in the moment, but that’s the point: why write it that way? Why not reintroduce her as an ally? Why not have her come around and realize Picard is right, and try to stop the Borg? Why kill her off?

I can forgive Ro, because she had a powerful and long arc, and her sacrifice meant something, even gave her agency to some extent, and it raised the stakes at a critical point in the story. But Shelby got none of that – they just wanted a nostalgic cameo and a dramatic death for the sake of it. We already knew the stakes, there was no sacrifice, Shelby had zero agency, it was all so utterly pointless.

I’ve had complaints about the way they bring back all these legacy TNG characters only to kill them off since season 1. I’m with you on Ro actually having some meaning and payoff. No complaints there, especially since I assume killing her off might have been a wish from Michelle Forbes given how she hasn’t really been interested in a return before. It also gave us some good drama and something to up the stakes for Picard with someone he cared about.

Like Hugh in season 1, Shelby just felt mean. I could take or leave her personally, but having her show up, show us that she finally got what she always wanted, have Riker and Picard trash her, and then she gets killed in a gruesome way. It just felt like the same lazy stuff with Shaw. She’s a Borg expert, let’s have her killed off by the Borg. Shaw’s traumatized by the Borg, let’s have him killed by the Borg. That’s just so lazy to me. I was just hoping for some better writing here than they sort of cheap choices.

“Shaw’s traumatized by the Borg, let’s have him killed by the Borg.” I absolutely have a problem with the writing on this. It’s not a fitting end, it’s a terrifying one.

If he’s named for Robert Shaw, it’s actually pretty on point.

I sadly have to agree with much of what you wrote, especially “the fact they dragged out the Jack stuff for nine episodes and then did a nonsensical villain switch with only one episode left”. So many interesting plot points and character beats were introduced at the outset, only to be allowed to wither on the vine while other elements were needlessly stretched out.  
Overall, I have enjoyed the season, and particularly the roles and portrayals of Riker, Deanna, Worf, La Forge and the again resurrected Data. But as it draws to a close, the season-long story just isn’t measuring up to the sum of its previously intriguing parts.   

It could have been worse… a bridge could have fallen on Shaw…

Honestly, I’d have enjoyed that for the humorous callback!

Deanna was the best. You wont be alone, …opens door… gotta go. Best counselor ever.

Yep, the dialogue is repetitious (“Frontier Day is only HOURS away! HOURS! Like TWO EPISODES OMG”) and this veteran group of elderly legends seems oddly given to meaningless filler dialogue of the “yes, I agree” variety.

But. The heart is definitely in the right place. Liam Shaw was (is?) a fantastic execution of an Audience Surrogate, version Cynical. The fan service (especially the starships in mothballs) is constant, and sometimes great. The scripts could have used maybe one more pass but really it’s a very excellent piece of Trek.

Trek is in a revival place in 2023, imagine that. Wow. Yay! Thank you all

That’s gonna be a helluva lot to unwind in less then an hour.

Well it is TNG, which back in the day made a habit of solving everything the final 8 min due to technobabble and all-too-convenient plot contrivances. So at least they are being consistent with TNG storytelling…lol

The Borg have been space zombies since arguably “Best of Both Worlds” and First Contact for sure. Beyond that, I don’t know of any story element from this season that is any more or less ridiculous than anything that the same people would call “classic Star Trek,” it’s just now the fans who find fault in this have selective memories about the TNG episodes where Brent Spiner was doing an improv workshop with an alien mask and Spot was turned into a lizard by a virus that made no sense.

The main argument over this is that some want to dismiss anything that works thematically for the show as fan service, when they were told explicitly FOR THE BETTER PART OF A YEAR that this season of a show based on revisiting the life of a legacy character (Picard) was a TNG reunion. And now some want to act shocked that there’s nostalgia.

The fact that the themes of this season are about those characters’ lives and re-finding their purpose together as a family means that it doesn’t even fit the definition of fan service. This is not gratuitous additions just as Easter eggs and nods. These are elements that are part of the plot and the universe of the story that have been integral for the character development of featured characters. Whether is be Riker and Troi’s relationship, the resurrection of Data, Picard relationship with Beverly and Jack, all of it ties into the idea of these characters finding strength in each other because of their support for one another as a family and the past they’re reconnecting with throughout the season. That’s not fan service. No more than it would be calling Wrath of Khan based in fan service because it references TOS and uses the history of the characters to expound on themes of age and consequences.

Borg have been space zombies since “Best of Both Worlds” and arguably First Contact for sure. Beyond that, there has been nothing more or less ridiculous about season 3 of Picard than what some of the critics would call “classic Star Trek.” It’s just some people want to have selective memories about Brent Spiner doing an improv workshop with an alien mask, and Spot having a littler of lizards.

Moreover, I disagree with the idea that this is fan service, since the nostalgia that people love to denigrate is not gratuitous or just inconsequential nods, but actually part of the character development and themes of the plot. Riker’s and Troi’s relationship, Data’s resurrection, and Picard’s and Beverly’s choices with Jack are all tied into things that get diminished as nostalgia but are central to the idea that these character reinforce each other as a found family with being defined by their past experiences.

To relegate and diminish that as fan service is the same as saying that Wrath of Khan is just fan service revisiting and making nods to a TOS character for the nostalgia.

But now they really are zombies — no more machine-biological integration, and we even get unnecessary horror-movie looking veins popping out on their faces, which makes no sense whatsoever unless they want them to look like TV zombies, which is obviously the shock value thing they were looking for. LAZY, LAZY, LAZY

And you can disagree all you want, but this season is all about fan service and sentimentality. But WOK (as you bring up) is not a great example of this — as an active fan at that time after TMP, sorry, but no, fans were not going to conventions begging, or even bringing up, “we want Khan,”…that simply never happened. So no, that was a creative story which brought back and character and storyline from TOS that certainly was appreciated by fans, but they didn’t do that because there was a groundswell of fan support for bringing back Khan that Harve Bennett and Nick Myers were responding to — that is simply not true. So that was not fan service. However, here, since Picard S1 was announced, fans have been begging constantly for TNG reunion to happen in Picard — and Matalas has now provided us with this — now that IS fan service..

Dudes. The answer is in front of you. They will lay Shaw inside the JTK resurrection booth. Project Phoenix!

LOL, yeah!

New Trek has a dehumanization problem. AI=life, V’ger just needed a new microchip. Everyone lives foreve- ack, whatever, bring back JTK and Shaw. LOL And Fleet Admiral Shelby, she deserved better. And Ro, that was a good character. Robo Picard can live forever with resurrected Data. Maybe Robo-Picard will share his tech with Janeway and they can live forever too.

Good points

Sorry, what is “JTK”?

Nick Meyer, himself no fan of Trek at all, said repeatedly at the time, “My job is not to give the fans what they want, it’s to make the fans want what I give them.” For better or worse (I’d argue both), he succeeded, and Trek had never been the same since.

No one thinks that Spiner doing improv or wearing a mask were anything like TNG’s finest moments, and if we’re making unfavorable comparisons of this season to anything it would be shows like “The Best of Both Worlds” or “The Inner Light,” not “Masks” or “The Outrageous Okona.” But thanks anyway; it’s been unseasonably cold in San Diego of late, and I can always burn those strawmen to keep warm.

If you’re contemplating Matalas and fan service, listen to the new episode of The Shuttlepod Crew, they interview Ira Steven Behr. More than once he talks about writing “for the fans” and what a disastrous proposition it is.

He says specifically, and I quote here: “it’s not up to us to give the fans what they want, I don’t care what they want, what we do is we give them what we think they need.”

And that’s a big reason of why DS9 was so good. We need to get back to that mentality. Sink or swim, let the creators craft the stories they want to tell, not because it’s what the fans want, but because it’s a great story.

They really do listen to fans too much. As seen by Discovery when they moved the show to the 32nd Century due to canon complaints.Ruining what could have been an interesting and fresh take on Star Trek. The only show that wasn’t TNG warmed over since Deep Space Nine. Now it is just the show that birthed Strange New Worlds and is being shuffled under a rug.

I think their bowing to the fans precedes that choice, too– that’s just the biggest one. Part of the chaotic nature of Discovery’s early troubles was that fan comments even during its development were pulling executives and creatives in so many different directions that it ended up a total mess. Nobody knew what they wanted to do and just checked message boards for ideas (yes, a lot of this is my supposition, admittedly)

Behr’s riffing there on what Nick Meyer said during production and post on TWOK, trying to keep the insane fans (that was most of them back then) at bay.

Well if you watch the interview (and I hope you do, it’s fantastic) he’s not riffing on Meyer at all. Perhaps he’s echoing the same sentiment by coincidence, but he specifically cites how in the early internet days, studio execs would come into the offices and show them printouts of online comments and demand they make changes based on what some random angry fan said.

I just committed to doing a bit of youtube viewing in another thread, just so I can see and laugh at what are described as flamethrowers that spew off occasionally on DSC’s bridge, so yeah, I’ll take a look at this too. I don’t think I’ve actually heard anything from this guy at all yet, outside of reading a few print interviews. They were supposed to put me on the phone with him for the article, but I was already thousands of words over, so I couldn’t justify it, knowing that at most I’d only be able to include a paragraph or two from him.

I recall the general gist of the Meyer comment as originating with something like ‘art is not made by committee,’ which later made me wonder how comfortable Meyer could have possibly been in or even remotely near the DSC writer’s room. I think the committee line is what fueled my own go-to line about interactive storytelling where the audience dictates the result, which was something like, ‘I don’t want to see a presentation of MOBY DICK where Ahab wins in the end by plugging the thing’s blowhole with his bionic leg.’

Will do – thanks!

This is rather fun.

Jurati merged with the Borg from an alternate timeline. It’s not that difficult to grasp.

It’s akin to how the Tasha Yar from the Yesterday’s Enterprise timeline traveled to the past of the prime timeline.

Yeah , I don’t understand the confusion over the Jurarti Borg either.
Go Figure.

Not only that but the insistence of those who don’t get it that THEY’RE right is hilarious.

People tend to be way too superficial and judge things on the surface, not bothering to actually understand what’s underneath it.

thats half the people on this website

And that’s the entirety of everyone who hates Zack Snyder’s DC movies. It’s a very unfortunate reality of fandoms.

Can you explain what is underneath the surface and of value on Zack Snyder DC movies?

This is coming from somebody who is not particularly a Marvel or DC fan, but happened to love the first two Nolan films and found MAN OF STEEL to be tedious and visually blah (ditto for what I managed to watch of BvsS.)

So I’m not a member of a comic fandom, but still really think his take on that verse sucked ripe mushmelons.

I think there’s a few interesting ideas in those films, but overall they’re terrible.

First thing you need to do is stop comparing them to other comic book movies. It is as futile as comparing early Marvel comics of the ’60s to DC comics from that same era. In both instances, they are entirely different things.

That said, Man of Steel is considerably the most comic book accurate Superman movie made to date in terms of adherence to the source material, and it is a considerably well-made movie about alien first contact told within the scope of Superman lore.

I don’t see any basis for comparison, to be honest. I find the Nolan films to be solid dramas with underpinning and subtext (even though it took him awhile to stage and edit action convincingly.) I haven’t read ever read BATMAN comics except for THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, and if I ever read SUPE comics, it must have been before I was 10 years old, so I wouldn’t know from source material. I did read the Elliot Magnin SUPERMAN novels that released alongside the first two Reeve films and found them to be very good reads and re-reads, but I’m guessing those are probably considered revisionist (Albert Einstein arranges for the Kents to find Kal-El?)

My main takeaway with MAN OF STEEL, outside of utter disdain for the color palette and design element, was watching it thinking that I’m never going to even try watching this ever again, just waiting to see how it resolves, not out of suspense but out of some misguided obligation, which was no longer in place when I sampled BvsS. I sensed a deliberate spin from the makers, one that seemed to subvert expectation without introducing anything of value in its place … There’s a possibility of the same thing happening again now that the GUARDIANS guy is running things, but except for the WW films, I haven’t seen a DC film in its entirety since MoS, so I wouldn’t know or care if it improved or disimproved.

outside of utter disdain for the color palette and design element” both of which are superficial, hence proving my point.

Did you have similar complains about Dune or Arrival? Of course not. No one did. That complaint is limited to Man of Steel, and the only reason people make it is because of their preconceptions of how they believe a comic book movie should look like (i.e. colorful and bright), which is entirely superficial, no different from people’s complains about Discovery or even Burton’s two Batman movies.

In both instances of the latter, DC corrected by making brightly colorful Batman and Superman movies (Batman Forever and Batman and Robin and Joss Whedon’s cut of Justice League) that were designed to pander/appeal to people that hated the preceding movies based on their superficial aesthetics. In both cases, both crashed and burned.

After Batman v Superman the DC movies got worse. There was no improvement whatsoever, and with Gunn in charge few people expect there to be any.

The moment he deviates from their preconceptions of what they want to see, they’ll turn on him.

Actually, I’ve had issues with color palette choices on most film and TV projects this century, as the DI process, coupled with digital acquisition, seems to have quashed any good sense about shooting (I’m excluding exquisitely done films like CHILDREN OF MEN here.) I honestly think DUNE looks good the way it is, largely because of the contrast levels and the usually rich shadows (aesthetically I still like the Lynch better), but ARRIVAL is very problematic for me, because it is so lacking in those areas. Plus the movie didn’t grab me, though I intend to rewatch it.

What you cite as a comic book look, I’d call ‘look outside and see that there are blue skies and white clouds’ — which are astonishingly absent as of late in most films, genre and otherwise, or seriously muted. I understand the idea behind desaturating Huston’s MOBY DICK, and even what they did for MCCABE & MRS MILLER (though I don’t dig it), but the idea that everything has to be mushy and low-con seems silly, as does being able to see all the detail in the shadows. I like rich black shadows, and they worked very well in cinema for decades (just like well made miniatures, come to think of it.)

The fact you mention the two Burton films is of interest; I find the first to be murky to the point of unwatchability (plus I really dislike it from start to finish), while the second one actually used strong backlight to create separation on the black-on-black scenes and is quite beautiful a lot of the time. You could say the second one is overlit at times, and I wouldn’t dispute that, but it isn’t grotesquely so.

Back on point … if you really think those aspects of filmmaking are superficial, maybe you should be listening to audio books.

What I think is that people are complaining about those superficial aspects in the Snyder movies out of a preconception of how they think comic book movies should look like, while they condone it in other movies from other directors.

That might be true for some evincing a double standard if the criticism is limited to just superhero fare, but I think — I hope — if you polled filmgoers that in general they’d also prefer movies that were sharp and bright and contrasty – Kodachrome if you will — and that we’ve been getting anything but that since digital hit.

I think the mushy look is perhaps quasi-understandable for the DEAD RINGERS series because it is a psychological study, but find it totally inappropriate in general, and particularly so with say PICARD s3. Is that a double standard, or just a matter of evaluating each drama on its own terms? (at this point I’m not attacking, just asking.)

I am very, very glad it was the Borg. They are the Next Generation’s primary villain. Despite what happened at the end of Voyager, and the fun Changeling subplot, what we need is closure – a final end – to the Borg story.

Until the next time

On the contrary, I am annoyed it was the Borg because they’ve been SO ridiculously overused. I was actually hoping it was someone entirely new, because Matalas has shown he can create compelling new characters.

Yeah, this reeks of the bad decision SW made to close the final trilogy with brining Palpatine back — and retconning past SW to make it seem like he was the driving force all along.

Again, I’m almost 100% convinced the inclusion of the Borg every season is a studio mandate.

I would not be surprised if that is the case.

Particularly in Season 2, it seemed completely shoe-horned in and with little purpose for the plot other than to give Jurati, Raffi, and Seven something to do.

I don’t agree that they’re overused. Before Picard they had not been seen since Enterprise’s second season. A child born the day that episode aired is in their 20s. They’ve just come back around.

And yet they were in Season 1 and Season 2. The Borg were ALWAYS best when they were used sparingly. They appeared in all of 4 stories across TNG’s 7 seasons.

The borg have been stitched into this show from the beginning. They’ve been overdo for a big invasion story, which hasn’t been done in over two decades. I feel this show has earned it. Sorry you guys are disappointed, but as usual with this forum, I think the opinions reflect aging fans not taking into account how much time has passed since the old stories.

it’s been a year. how old are you?? 6 months?

Last season was very different. You’re just being a dick.

Last year the Borg ended up being an ally. That was twist. It was not a BoBW/First Contact Borg invasion story in the classic sense, which is what I got from his comment. Agree or disagree, but try to reason before you snark,

Yes, we all realize it’s been 23 years since Voyager. But the Borg were literally in Season 1 and Season 2 of THIS SHOW last year and the year before.

No, neither of those was “a big invasion story.” But that’s semantics, if you ask me. The Borg were there, and seeing them again is just tiresome unless it’s a fresh, great story, and this ain’t it.

Or, even if I had been OK with the Borg being used, why not something new? I actually like what they tried to do in Season 1 — or started to try to do at least — because it was something NEW.

This is just old rehashing of old ideas. Which CAN work, but right now it’s not. Because at the end of the day, Bucky old boy, this isn’t even a Borg story. It’s a changeling story with a Borg in the final scene.

So even if you’re looking for a BIG BORG INVASION story, you didn’t even get THAT.

Bucky old boy? I was not disrespectful to you. Can you people be adults about a TV show? Learn to disagree without looking emotionally crippled. Just because we’re a bunch of old guys doesn’t mean we have to look like cranky curmudgeons over a TV show.

He needs a nap.

I do, I was up all night working. Long hours here!

Wow, so easily offended. I was just trying to be friendly.

My spouse felt closure with the reveal it was The Borg.

I suppose that’s the benefit of watching casually and not rewatching – they just don’t feel there’s been as much Borg over saturation as I do.

But when it’s the core fanbase who’ve been watching and rewatching for the past six years who are yawning at the conclusion, this isn’t a great outcome even so.

Things often stop being scary when you see them too often. It’s why the best horror slashers don’t show the monster until the end.

The borg were TERRIFYING because we rarely saw them, they were mysterious, and when they showed up it was intimidating.

But by the end of Voyager, they were toothless, defeated easily, and in the first two seasons of PIC they were further defanged. Now, I get it: Matalas might want to make them terrifying again. But it’s just too soon. They don’t even seem scary.

I think it would have been much more interesting if it had been the Conspiracy aliens.

At this point, i’m forced to agree.

My personal wish was Armus.

I completely understood why others were so down when it was revealed to be the Borg. But same time, it totally makes sense obviously. I just wish KNOWING what season 3 was suppose to be about, they had avoided using them completely at least in season 2. In season 1, we only saw remnants of them basically and there was no Borg Queen either. In season 2 we literally got two of them lol.

And what is even more eye rolling is that they felt wasted in both seasons. You lose absolutely nothing in season one if they weren’t there other than just hanging out on the Borg cube and seeing Hugh again. They couldn’t be bothered to connect them to the main story and yet we saw them for nine episodes. In season 2, they came up with the whole alternate Borg thing just to stop some crazy energy beam thing coming out of a conduit and it’s immediately dropped this season.

Unlike those plot threads, this season the Borg is being used that is actually vital to the story. We just didn’t know about it until now. So I understand why they wanted to use them again, I just wish they did something different in season 2 so we at least had a gap so people could be a little more excited again.

Or maybe we will see the alternate Borg in the finale and aids the Enterprise. But not holding my breath.

Wow, we agree on something. The Borg are easily the best thing to come out of TNG when they are a scary villain and you combined them with the Dominion which is easily the best thing to come out of DS9. And they’ve been retoothed to the point they were using Picard.
Just think how nullified the Borg have been presented when they practically kidnapped Seven of Nine and used her body without consent and some are all like “how dare Shaw suggest she not want to honor that name?”. Like WTF?
I think the big mistake here is leaving this arc for two episodes when zombie shows are in.
Having the Borg take over the fleet, force crew members to shoot Fleet Admiral Shelby on the Ent-G (even though I loved Shelby), having Laforge’s kids assimilated, that all is the ground work for a whole series and now TNG style they’ll resolve it in 60 minutes.
I also think they had some potential plot elements to expand on this (robo-Picard tech where AI=life should be worth something to the Borg, while assimilate when you can make the Starships your new lifeforms? Do the Borg turn on the Changlings if they don’t need them? Can the Borg assimilate the changlings, etc).

It’s. Not. The. Dominion.

They’re a rogue group that split off from the Dominion. The real Dominion is in the gamma quadrant still, with Odo, not threatening anyone.

Agreed. Yeah the Changelings here are rogue Changelings although it’s still confusing how there are so many of them? Did some leave the Great Link to join these others? Because they made it clear it was only 8 who escaped Daystrom station but there has to be a bigger amount to be able to take over Starfleet as Ro said they did. Still very confused.

Yeah I think some did leave the Great Link. I don’t see how Odo would have known that much about them otherwise.

Yeah, that’s what I assumed, but I don’t think they ever explicitly said it. Or maybe they did and I just missed it.

Apologies, I mean Changlings. The Dominion (and changlings) at peace with the Federation is boring.
The Changlings willing to ally with the Borg to take out their hated enemy, that’s scary.
And what if the Borg assimilated the Changlings?
What is scarier, the Borg able to change forms… or if AI=life and the Borg ships and machines are alive and can do whatever.
I don’t know how you deal with that using Star Trek tech, and that means in my opinion that is where you want to go.

I’d rather have the boring route. If the Borg even touch the Vorta, I’ll find someway to get into the universe and destroy them all myself.

Sorry I cannot and will not go for boring. This ain’t Young and the Restless in space.
That makes me think the Borg should have started to assimilate the Vorta too to force the Dominion into the fight some having to side with the Federation while the other half voluntarily goes with the Borg because they hate the Feds so much.I’m talking the Borg so villainous that only Sisko, Janeway and Picard working together with a rejuvenated Kirk sacrificing themselves complete with some questionable ethical Genesis II torpedoes to stop them over at least a season.
They could only play that card once… but I suppose at least they played the evil Borg card and I’ll take what I can get on that.

Never ever say that to me again. Okay? Just never.

Sounds awful.

They were interesting in TNG. They stopped being that interesting thanks to Voyager. Enterprise used them REALLY well.

Now, they’re so toothless, the arrival of the Queen — even the creepy Alice Krige herself — doesn’t even make me bat an eyelash. They’re so watered down after the last two seasons, why does anyone even care any more?

If they hadn’t used them in S1/S2, i’d be much more behind their use here.

Yes. I was actually thinking if we are going to see her coming to the rescue. I have been wondering if we are going to see Jurati and the others in the final episode. Full closure to these three seasons.

Jurati Borg and all that nonsense was a mistake and they know it. Consider that how Star Trek V treated the Klingons and VI rectified it. Best to ignore Season 2 entirely.

Oh don’t worry, Season 1 and 2 are just bad dreams at this point. Season 3 is the true beginning.

Don’t hold your breath — I think it’s 50/50 as to whether we see Jurati in ep 10.

Yeah, I know Pill said she wasn’t in S3, but I am not sure I totally trust that news.

Jurati Borg could be one way out, but they telegraphed it is going to be Jack, when he said “and I’ll show them just what I can do.”

True, but at the end of Ep 9, they showed the Borg Queen from behind, which to me sort of telegraphs that seeing her could be a major Ep 10 reveal?

PS: Please remind me, did we ever see Denise Crosby show up yet in this season? I recall that she was possibly showing up briefly at some point?

We saw the Tasha Hologram while Data and Lore were fighting for control.

Ah, thanks! I will have to go back and watch that again.

Brining back Jurati doesn’t make sense. She hasn’t been in season three at all. The finale needs to involve the characters who’ve been around this season, not characters from past seasons popping in for one-shot appearances.

You do realize how funny you sound given all the previous Trek characters that have shown up for one shot appearances this season, don’t you? ;-)

Yep, that’s my thinking as well. It was a mistake to even use them in season 2, which is funny because I so excited to see what they were going to do with them in the premiere. Now that we know, I wish they never bothered.

Yeah. The more he says 💩 like these things, the more I don’t want him doing more shows, between the two episodes of ENT he wrote and this season, nah.

What? Did you watch the first two seasons of Picard and then watch this. Season 3 is better by orders of magnitude. Is it perfect, no nothing really is. But this season saved what would have been a horrible final chapter of the Picard storyline (especially season 2).

It’s all horrible to me. when this season started I was hopeful that it would get PIC out of the position of my least favorite Trek series. Instead it just cemented itself there even further.

S2 sucked for sure — the worst season of Trek since Enterprise S4.. But the overall quality of this season is on par with S1 — it just feels superior on the surface because of the fan service/sentimentality of the TNG crew reunion. If you take a cold, hard look at it, this season is about equal to S1 in terms of quality, issues, etc.

You are very lonely in this world if you think the awesome ENT season 4 is bad.

I’ve only seen a few eps, but man, it looked as bad as s1 to me (which is to say unwatchable – gave up on series halfway thru first ep s2.)

Yeah, and if you look at the viewership levels at the time, fans kept dropping out and abandoning the series at the same rate in S3 and S4 as for the first two seasons.

I watched the entire cluster-F back then — I can state in my opinion that the entire series was crap, and deserved to be cancelled. It was actually a relief to me that I did not have to watch it anymore, given I feel obligated to watch all Star Trek.

The entire “Manny Coto Saved Enterprise” narrative by the handful, but loud (on the internet) fans today who insist this crap series is a good one is just an URBAN LEGEND.

I became a fan of Enterprise from season 2 on. But it took me 12 years to even watch it lol. But I know people still don’t like the show today, but I really grew to love it, especially season 4 but I like season 3 just as much actually.

I’m watching ENT for the first time rn, haven’t gotten to season 4 yet but so far in my admittedly biased experience, I know it’s gonna be a good episode only if I see “guest stars: Jeffrey Combs.”

And even then there’s definitely flaws that weight them down. Like the way T’Pol gets treated.

PIC season two is really bad. It’s the worst season of ST for sure, and, for my money, one of the poorest, most inept seasons of any televisions series.

As for Enterprise, a.k.a Star Trek Enterprise, by the time that show appeared, ST was pretty worn out, so it was kind of fated to be a lesser entry.

I don’t like a lot of his choices in this episode in particular, but i’m not ready to anoint him as crap, either.

I mean, yes, it’s rude and premature of me to say he’s crap. I think his comments are crap and sure think those two ENT episodes are crap. This season turned to crap too. But if he gets to do more Trek, I’m just not gonna trust him, not even for a second.

Man, I am so sorry this season disappointed you as much as it did Gritizens. I’m still really loving it personally, even wit its faults, but I can tell it is starting to disappoint others, especially after the Borg reveal.

I’m not one of the people complaining about the fan service, because ngl, it’s nice to see most of these characters again. My main issue is damn I really feel like the changelings were wasted. And I also feel used since they were my one draw to even watch this season and I got nothing I even hoped for out of it. Now there’s no chance we’ll get any kind of conclusion to the rogue group’s presence in the season. Plus the one new character that I liked the most is dead so 😮‍💨.

I actually don’t disagree with much of that. And yeah, I don’t like how the Changelings just felt discarded the minute Vadic and her goons were killed. But you’re also right, the Changelings should still be very involved because last time I checked they still have infiltrators in Starfleet controlling things. None of that has been resolved so they should be very much around in the finale (unless the argument is they were assimilated or something, but I’m guessing those are all way older than 25 lol).

And I don’t know if we’re fully done with Shaw yet. Matalas is saying some contradictory things about him. He says he’s dead, but also says he will still be in the spin off show lol. I’m surprised Trekmovie didn’t include that considering he said that in an interview just several days ago. So maybe he’s not really dead? I guess we’ll know soon.

I’m not gonna lie. I can’t deal with the Borg because they negatively trigger the absolute hell out of me [long complicated story]. I don’t mean they make me angry, they do that too, I’m talking about full fledged panic attacks that leave me non functional for 30 minutes at the shortest. I’m unable to watch any episodes with them because of that. So now I can’t even see how this all ends. Even if they do wrap things up with the changelings. (Also explains some of the things I said in other parts of this comment section and on other articles.) And that’s another part of why I don’t like this season or even this series. I could skip the prodigy episode because at least then I had a warning but a surprise like this season? Yeah no I was lucky I found spoilers ahead of time.

Either way 😮‍💨 I just have to hope things do get wrapped up with the Changelings even if I can’t watch the episode.

Wow dude, I am sorry to hear that. Well I can definitely get why you wouldn’t want them there. Gritizens, I’ve only noticed you here since this season started but everything I’ve from you since seems to be someone with a tough life. And I can definitely share in that growing up. As cheesy as this is going to sound I do hope watching Star Trek gives you some comfort and relief.

It does, it’s been my favorite franchise for nearly 30 years now.

That’s certainly great to hear at least! And I see you are watching Enterprise for the first time and hope you enjoy that too. It’s one of my favorites. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you about the one episode you should definitely avoid in season 2. ;)

Yeah that episode is a hard skip for me and one of the reasons I quit watching it while it was airing.

I’m really enjoying the Andorian episodes, minus the sexist moments that make me super uncomfortable. So far those have been the best ones in my admittedly biased opinion.

Yeah I love all the Andorian episodes too. They did such a great job with them on that show. And that story line continues all the way through the fourth season where they have a huge story to tie a lot of things up. You probably know all of this lol, but just letting you know.

It was one of things I was excited (but later disappointed) about Discovery, because I was hoping we get some more Andorian story lines. But other than a few appearances by them, they were basically just in the background again like TOS unfortunately.

Ok, there is no way a legacy show is not in some form of development after how much so many different people have talked about it over the past several months and Picard breaking into the top 10 of streaming hours.

Yeah but we’re getting a Discoverse 32nd Century Starfleet Academy show nobody asked for and they’re still harping on about a Section 31 show, even though they have no idea what S31 actually is (it was never meant to be a Starfleet Intelligence offshoot). Plus, SNW which is just another bloody prequel, again in the weird visually rebooted Discoverse. People just wanted fun again with Pike after the DIS pessimism, but for me, it’s going backwards again.

Yet, when fans are starting to reunite and love Trek again over how good Picard Season 3 has been and the possibility of moving the franchise forward again (respecting visual and narrative canon, while also being hopeful/better written/better scored), they aren’t green lighting Legacy? Do Paramount hate money or something? 🤷🏻‍♂️

Yeah but we’re getting a Discoverse 32nd Century Starfleet Academy show nobody asked for

Huh, WTF? I, and a lot of other fans, have been waiting for this type of Trek show since Harve Bennett first came up with the initial academy concept in the mid-80’s.

Please don’t presume to lord over that you know what all fans want or don’t want. IDIC

I don’t mind a Starfleet Academy show, but I would enormously prefer it be set in the Picard era. Paramount should be seriously reconsidering the setting. They could have their own Chicago Fire/PD/Med or NCIS franchise with two or three shows in the same time period allowing big crossover “events”. They only did that once or twice in the Berman-era, and I’ve always thought that was a mistake. The Discovery setting just doesn’t fit in. Added bonus: costumes, sets, CGI ships, and props could be used across both shows (Academy and Legacy) keeping costs down.

I think that is the other issue, people just don’t want it in the 32nd century and in the 25th century instead. I personally have no issues being in the 32nd century but yes I would be lying if I said it wouldn’t be cool to have a Chief O’Brien or even a B’Elanna Torres on the show as professors on the show. :)

As far as cross over events, sure I agree it would’ve been more fun to do it back then, but they were concerned of losing people if someone watched Voyager but didn’t watch DS9, etc. We did have episodes where Lewis Zimmerman appeared on the station, etc, but they never took advantage of a huge 24th century team up. The irony is if another movie happened after Nemesis, it sounds like that was one of the ideas.

Good point, but on the other hand I am not sure I need another show in the 25th century given DSC is winding down.

Because it’s Discoverse Starfleet Academy. Not the 25th century etc. and yes a Starfleet Academy setting has always been talked about (they even used some of the The First Adventure ideas for Star Trek 2009) but that doesn’t mean everyone wanted it, if you did, you’re in the minority for sure. Especially compared to a Star Trek: Legacy show. Let’s hope to Q it ain’t Starfleet Academy 90210. But if it’s the Discovery writing team….

Yeah no one I talked to ever wanted an Academy show. And certainly not a Kurtzman one where they are going to CW the hell out of it with teen melodrama cranked to the max.

Tilly will probably be there every episode with a lame quip, pap pet talk and a soothing hug to some Andorian who found out they were being cheated on by their hot Cardassian boyfriend and that’s why she failed her Quantum field midterm.

But it all works out when she realizes how much her Academy friends backs her, they help her study in a dramatic but touching montage before she takes it again and passes with flying colors this time. Everyone cries and there’s even more hugs if you can believe that. There is even a high five. It’s finally back in style again in the 32nd century. The end.

Really no thanks. 🙄

LOL! That is hilarious.

But it is funny because I remember all the (very lame) excuses from people who said why Star Trek shouldn’t go past Nemesis. Because apparently if you go too far in the future humans would be too “unrelatable” for people to watch today. That was a constant drumbeat by some people why a post-Nemesis Star Trek show will just never ever work.

Sometimes people do seem to forget Star Trek is just a fictional TV show and not a documentary on the future. Because as Discovery proved even being waaaay in the 32nd century, humans are still just as relatable as they were in the 23rd and 24th century. Characteers like Book, Vance and Adira all just turned out to be normal and cool down to earth people like you find in boring old 21st century.

And your post is probably pretty accurate because if it’s anything like Discovery is now, it’s going to feel like a very present day teen drama who will probably act and sound like teens in the 21st century. And I don’t think it’s a bad thing if the point is to attract younger people to watch the show. It’s exactly why the characters on LDS sound as they do as well, for the younger people who watches it. And I have zero issues with it.

But yeah, as all these shows, from LDS to PIC and DIS have all proven, humans will always be relatable on Star Trek because it’s a TV show being watched by people in the 21st century, not the 24th, 25th or 32nd centuries.

Another why I love Kurtzman. He cancelled out this ridiculous argument for all eternity now.

Older, core fans may not want it, but of course a lot of the newer, diverse fans who made DSC popular will — obviously P+’s market research shows this, or they wouldn’t be doing it. They don’t green light these series on a whim.

What happened to all the fans that used to be like “Trek MUST BE ABOUT GOING FORWARD” where we need the Enterprise-XYZ and the Voyager-Q exploring the 21st galaxy in flying hotels? Did they go down with Shelby on the Enterprise-G?
Now they are all “ahh, our bridges have carpet and wood” from the 90s?!?!?
I think they can pull off the Academy show by resetting and rebuilding everything. Between the Borg crippling Starfleet, the Enterprise-E gone down in flames with Worf, the burn, etc, you have a real shot at rebuilding Starfleet in an exciting dangerous universe on the final frontier.
(you just need a hot shot writer though to lose the horrid bridges, magic mushroom drives and detachable nacelles). But some neo Constitution class cruisers might need to be pulled out of the museum?

Because it seems to be a spinoff of Discovery, the show has been divisive since s01e01, the writing on it is has been hit or miss at best, and (to me) that doesn’t bode well for the direction of the show.

I think the reason people are willing to give Matalas and a Legacy spinoff a chance is that it seems like the production and writing staff, while not perfect, have come the closest to any of these series in getting a Star Trek series that people are genuinely enjoying and excited about, instead of going into every episode hoping that this will work better than the last one, which is how a lot of Discovery has been for me.

Berman Trek was bland, starships are a dime a dozen and the galaxy is so dangerous the bridges have carpet and kids are aboard.
Strange New Worlds is what saved Trek, and to play catch up Picard Season 3 had to play TOS movie era and give us David Marcus Picard while admiting Picard was compromised by the Borg which makes for a great mini series.
The problem… you have a Picard spin off and it will degenerate into Berman Trek mixed with Picard S1/S2 and you’ll get the worst of both worlds… but maybe if you do a whole new crew post Picard S3 disaster?!? Maybe.

Because it seems to be a spinoff of Discovery, the show has been divisive since s01e01, the writing on it is has been hit or miss at best, and (to me) that doesn’t bode well for the direction of the show.

LOL, dude, SNW is a spinoff of DSC. Seriously, man, pay attention! :-))

If you watch SNW they pretty much ignore Discovery after some framing comments (thankfully). Suddenly starships aren’t a dime a dozen, no magic mushroom drives, the bridges aren’t football fields with doors and wasted space, Constitution class cruisers are of paramount importance under Admiral April, etc. Suddenly all the starfleet ships look like TOS ships, they even had a Saladin class scout.
I’m not sure what happened Production side (apart from my minor qualms apart from removing some of the bridge colors and changing the phasers to red) it’s like real fans took over and it is great!!
The bridge crew has a lot of variety, everyone seems to have a personality. They are allowed some debate. They are exploring strange new worlds in an vastly unexplored galaxy. They can’t just radio Starfleet for instructions all the time.
Also that bridge… OMG so good with the Captain able to interact with the crew and all the panels and crewmembers in the background. (Irony, the colors of the set in Discovery and the blue phasers were better in Discovery and I am totally unclear why they changed it to monochrome, but it still beats anything in Picard).
It’s actually very good, I highly recommend it and I wasn’t too thrilled with Discovery which Berman Treked the 23rd century with thousands of starship and magic mushrooms.
They do keep the Pike story line that he knows about the future, but I think that is a great arc with a character knowing he will face this horrid event and does it anyway. That’s the definition of a real hero to me.

LOL SNW is as Berman Trek as they come. It’s a reason why so many seem to like it. Tell me one episode in season one that couldn’t be a substitute for a TNG/DS9/VOY episode? Just one?

What’s funny is Discovery feels like the anti-Berman Trek show because how they structured it.

And dude they radioed Starfleet multiple times. What are you talking about? Not only that, it’s only been one episode where they even left Federation space for like a day in the Pirate episode. It’s literally why they were able to get back to Starbase One so quickly in Spock Amok after facing the Gorn in the previous episode.

But yes I do love all the ships actually look like TOS ships again. Another big negative against Discovery.

You mean episode one where Pike unilaterally decides to fly the Enterprise down into the atmosphere without asking Starfleet Command for instructions and doesn’t care if the Admirals are going to throw him in jail?
Pike vs. the Gorn?
A security chief recommending shields up on a First Contact?
An episode where Pike as the diplomat isn’t shown to be the right Captain in all circumstances?
That ain’t no Berman Trek. If it was Berman Trek you wouldn’t be crying for Seven of Nine and carpet on a starship again because you need your Young and the Restless in space fix.

“You mean episode one where Pike unilaterally decides to fly the Enterprise down into the atmosphere without asking Starfleet Command for instructions and doesn’t care if the Admirals are going to throw him in jail?”

Sisko poisoned a planet and he never called Starfleet in for instructions on that either lol. Picard went against Starfleet to save the Ba’ku and would face a court martial over it because he disagreed with what they were doing. He didn’t radio that in ahead of time either. ;)

Janeway spent 7 seasons without informing Starfleet because she couldn’t. Yes, Starfleet officers have done things without informing Starfleet before. This is not a new thing lol.

“Pike vs. the Gorn?”

MU Archer faced one on Enterprise. And what does that have to do with anything?

“A security chief recommending shields up on a First Contact?”

Because they thought they were hostile lol. How many times have you seen security officers advise to raise shields when they think the new guy could be a threat???? And in this case they were proven right. That’s how you are suppose to do it. It’s happened on every show. Dude,these are the weakest arguments I have seen.

“An episode where Pike as the diplomat isn’t shown to be the right Captain in all circumstances?”

Several I can think of from Enterprise: “A Night in Sickbay”, “Cease Fire” , “Desert Crossing”. That’s just off the top of my head and why I loved the show. Archer wasn’t perfect. He made mistakes, especially when trying to be a diplomat. ;)

Dude this is exactly Berman Trek lol. And these ‘examples’ are desperate at best lol.

TNG and Voy are Berman Trek in my opinion, I’ll call that forgettable Trek. DS9 and ENT when allowed to be a prequel in my opinion are not.
DS9 rocked because they tried to get away from TNG with a galactic war, the downside being Starships were still a dime a dozen (DS9 still working though since it was not about a Starship crew). I think they even blew up the Odyssey to show this ain’t your Berman Trek and the hotels in space are going down.
ENT different story too, because when it wasn’t Berman Trek, it was GREAT. Indeed Enterprise is the greatest missed opportunity in Star Trek history.
Had Enterprise been a primative starship unable to contact starfleet command, the only starship in the quadrant, Earth rebuilding after WW3, nuclear weapons, no transporters, no phasers on stun, making mistakes and learning from aliens vs. all perfect, the Romulans wanting to conquer us, the Klingons wanting to destroy us, the Vulcans thinking humans are illogical, the Andorians seeing us as push overs it would have been the greatest Star Trek ever.
And when Enterprise was allowed to be a TOS prequel, it was great. Had it been that from the beginning mark my words, it would have been better than even Strange New Worlds and TOS combined. When it was TNG again, boring.
VOY was horrid because here you had a ship on its own and it magically repaired itself, no lasting reprecussions, the ship just went on like it was TNG. Again wasted opportunity. Could VOY had been great, yes, but it had to ditch TNG
I think that’s what’s lost in translation, I am never for TOS or prequels because of nostogla, could care less if it is JTK again and I don’t need my bridge to look like the 60s….. I am for a small group of Starships where everything is on the line with crews that have to learn from the universe because they are not perfect, deal with limitations and real dangers and challenges will pursevering (and yes, okay fine, for a bridge that makes functional sense and looks cool in such a universe).
Even with Picard, I am not TNG fan (though yes, I watched and I like Geordi, Riker, Troy, Crusher and Data), but I more like seeing them dealing with the danger! That’s what I’m talking about, full credit to Season 3.

It doesn’t work that way. Berman A. CREATED DS9 lol and B. Had say on everything that happens because he was the overseer just like Kurtzman is today.

Dude, he created DS9 because he didn’t want it to be like TNG. That was the point lol. So yes, it’s very much ‘Berman Trek’ when his name is all over the freaking show and set up all the characters and premise.

You also seem to forget Berman didn’t create TNG, Roddenberry did. This is why it’s a waste time to discuss these things with you. Berman simply took over when he left and actually changed things people hated like the fact there could be no conflict between characters people like you complained about. Again, WHY he created DS9 in the first place.

And I’ve heard your points about Enterprise needing to be more primitive 200 times now. It doesn’t change the reality everything you’re claiming as being ‘different’ in SNW has been done multiple times on all the shows in the 90s and Enterprise lol.

None of your arguments held up longer than five minutes. SNW is as Berman Trek as you can get. I asked you to prove me wrong and to tell me one episode that can’t be a substitute for TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT. Can you tell me one please? Just…one. ;)

The irony is there are plenty of DIS and early PIC episodes that would not fit Berman Trek at all due their structures, level of violence and language.

SNW is as comfort food and Berman era Star Trek as you can get and why it’s so popular. It’s hilarious to pretend other wise.

“Berman didn’t create TNG, Roddenberry did.”
Bingo, everything that sucked about TNG was the Roddenbery rules. The Enterprise is a hotel. The aliens, even Q, learn from the perfect humans not vis versa. The Klingons love us now even. The bad guys are the Ferengi.
90s Roddenbery sucked.
Like you said, “Dude, he created DS9 because he didn’t want it to be like TNG.”
As soon as Roddenbery died they started to move Trek back to action/adventure in the final frontier TNG improved but the rotten superstructure was still there.
I blame Berman but you are right that the culprit is 90s Roddenbery (“Perfect humans, everyone wants to be us we are so perfect!”) who I feel came to hate 60s Roddenbery (“wagon train to the stars! Relatable humans!”).
Your examples are all when Trek is like TNG it sucks. When it is an action/adventure in space, it rocks.
90s Roddenbery Young in the restless in space (“I had tears in my eyes because I saw a bridge with carpet” sucks). 60s Roddenbery (“Wagon train to the stars, Horatio Hornblower in space, only ship in the quadrant”) rocks.
BTW, I say it a thousand times because it my old hope of getting something drilled in and then I get what I want. SNW on the Big E. Picard being compromised and a TOS movie era type story in Picard.

So why are you complaining about Berman then???

LOL, this is why I don’t even bother anymore. Your arguments about how SNW isn’t relatable to Berman Trek was dispelled after just one post. I’ve asked you twice now to give me a SNW episode that doesn’t resemble an episode of a Berman show and you can’t give me one dude lol. So it proves SNW basically is more Berman Trek. Thanks for proving that. But now you have left that argument behind to go to your usual rant about Roddenberry and TNG you have said about 200 times now in the last decade.

This is why you don’t get many responses from people. ;)

Lol Maybe I’d get more responses if I was all like “OMG, I saw carpet on the bridge and was crying but then I saw Seven of Nine and had tears in my eyes”.
I remember all that “Trek should be about the future and move forward”, see now that it was really all a cover for you wanting Trek to go back to soap opera Trek.
I think it should be abundantly clear now who really is all about the nostalgia and it was NEVER ironically the TOS fan.
I use “Berman Trek” as he was Roddenbery’s right hand man and yes, even though he realized the Roddenbery rules sucked, he still allowed them. DS9 rocked when Berman was busy elsewhere and the rules went out the window. But I will use “90s Roddenbery” from now on, it just is horrid.
Look at your own argument, “Berman Trek” you say is Strange New Worlds and Deep Space Nine, shows that tried NOT to be TNG. Everytime Star Trek tried to be different than TNG it rocked, every time it was it sucked.
Good, agreed then, TNG sucks and we want shows that aren’t like TNG like Strange New Worlds. We have Strange New Worlds, we don’t need Seven of Nine show which I guess would be exactly like SNW by your own admission.
The truth – we will just never be aligned because you want Trek to be about being a little kid where you thought that was perfect (that’s why you are crying over carpet on a bridge that makes no sense and seeing old actors on the show), I want Trek to be about how kids can channel hopes for the future into overcoming challenges despite realizing the future is never perfect (I want shows that get people to want to join SpaceX even though the ships will be rough and the challenges immense).. When you grow up you should realize life is hard, but that is okay. You should be crying over Starship launches inspired by Star Trek adventures and what can be and having kids, not seeing Seven of Nine on a TV show on some badly designed bridge from the 90s.
That’s what TOS was, that’s why the cheap 60s sets are garbage but the concept of a commander able to turn and interact with crew and dispays will live on centuries from now.
Or we can agree that Strange New Worlds is good Trek that is is “Berman Trek”, that’s the future. Sounds good to me, win-win.

Dude no offense, but you just sound like a bitter old man who is still angry about TV shows from 30 years ago not going the direction you personally wanted them to. And that’s your right, but as you clearly know, you don’t speak for the majority. Not even close or we wouldn’t be watching the Enterprise D soaring again 29 years later and so much enthusiasm from fans over it.

This last episode is now rated the highest rated episode on IMDB of every Star Trek show ever made. I definitely do not agree with that lol, but it shows just how much people still love the 1701 D and TNG in general, more than ever in fact.

I happen to enjoy it all even if I don’t love it all! From Roddenberry Trek to Kurtzman Trek. Because it’s all Star Trek to me and I’ll take it in any form.

OK, good talk. Take care.

Hey my friend, Don’t sweat that dude’s ageism personal attacks. He’s name-called me a bitter 70-year-old when I push back on some of his points (I’m in my ’50s by the way). That’s the way he rolls. He does not like being pushed back on in a long-running discussion, and he will never admit he’s wrong on anything when the discussion goes back and forth like this. And he’s pulled this crap on alpha predator and I just in the last 2 weeks again. My advice would be just to move on until he cools down.

I’ll also just warn you to be aware though, that if you keep arguing with him, the next step for him will be for him to try to get you to agree to ignore each other, but lol —
that will be a one-way street because he’ll still jump in whenever he feels like it anyway — he’ll have a grudge with you that goes on forever. I’ve solved that issue though by when I see that he’s directly responding to me I don’t even read what he says anymore, and I just give him a one-line disclaimer which probably drives him crazy…don’t feed the troll, lol

Did you get that out of your system? Good. Bye.

Lol Maybe I’d get more responses if I was all like “OMG, I saw carpet on the bridge and was crying but then I saw Seven of Nine and had tears in my eyes”.

Lol, just awesome, dude! And you I disagree a lot, but I like that we don’t get defensive about it and that we can both take a written punch without whining about it, unlike some here.

90s Roddenbery Young in the restless in space (“I had tears in my eyes because I saw a bridge with carpet” sucks). 60s Roddenbery (“Wagon train to the stars, Horatio Hornblower in space, only ship in the quadrant”) rocks.


Had Enterprise been a primative starship unable to contact starfleet command, the only starship in the quadrant, Earth rebuilding after WW3, nuclear weapons, no transporters, no phasers on stun, making mistakes and learning from aliens vs. all perfect, the Romulans wanting to conquer us, the Klingons wanting to destroy us, the Vulcans thinking humans are illogical, the Andorians seeing us as push overs it would have been the greatest Star Trek ever.

Exactly. The problem was simple — instead of giving us a TOS prequel, they gave us and incrementalist TNG prequel

If it was Berman Trek you wouldn’t be crying for Seven of Nine and carpet on a starship again because you need your Young and the Restless in space fix.


Additionally, I find it kind of silly that T’Pring can just stop by and hang out on the Enterprise whenever she feels like it. If the show goes on long enough, I’ll be interested in how she and Spock break up because they clearly hadn’t seen each other in quite a while in Amok Time (actually, that episode seems to indicate that they haven’t seen each other since they were kids, given that Spock looks at a photo of her as a child).

Dude don’t get me started on T’Pring lol. At this point, you basically have to take Amok Time and just pretend like it doesn’t exist OR just look at SNW being in an altered universe. And I only mean if that’s the only way you can enjoy SNW without trying to align it with TOS. It’s been obvious since episode 4 once the Gorn showed up they are not trying to align it directly with TOS canon, just the very broad strokes of it.

And I’m cool with that now and I really like T’Pring as a character. But it broke TOS canon long ago and I’m not going to twist myself into pretzels to pretend any of it really fits. Kirk is showing up five years before he’s suppose to even take command and his brother is now working on ship with a Khan decedent. It’s all just so nonsensical lol.

But it’s still a fun and lighthearted show I’m really enjoying and that’s more important to me.

Well I could say the same for the Law and Order Spinoffs. In fact, SVU long ago eclipsed the original, just like SNW is doing now as compared to DSC. That doesn’t mean that we don’t give the original it’s due though for creating multiple shows. I mean, if we get the Section 31 series, eventually, that will be 3 spinoffs! That’s basically showing that DCS is the Law and Order of Star Trek — a franchise generator of multiple series.

BTW, I agree with your observations here! SNW is certainly better than DSC, even though I liked DSC.

I’m torn on Discovery.
Likes: Michael’s redemption arc and the character having imperfections, her actually being able to think firing on the Klingons would prevent a war, Sarek/Spock angle (it really worked for me which was surprising), the Discovery ship design herself (minus the bridge), Captain Philippa Georgiou. Lorca, Klingon war, going to the future where a good old 23rd century crew has to show the 35th century (or whatever) how it is done and rebuild Starfleet. Number One and the big E with blue phasers.
Dislikes: Starships a dime a dozen already with thousands of Starships and everyone able to communicate easily, free energy to jump all over the place, Michael not needing a bridge crew team, all the other starfleet ships except DIS and the big E look like TNG ships, all the aliens still using the same tech as Starfleet without variety, no real Klingon war in the Klingon war (not WW2 in space as it should have been over unexplored territory, needing resources), the stupid football sized bridge where the Captain can’t communicate with anyone while she is reviewing all the doors, The burn is caused by just a kid with issues and can be resolved in a year.
Can’t decide: Control.
SNW manages to pull of eliminating everything I disliked about discovery, keeping everything I liked (except the blue phasers and color on the bridge… why?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WHY?!?!?!?!!?!?), tossing everything I disliked without really tossing out Discovery.

On DSC, I loved S1 and S2 with the Lorca/mirror universe focus in S1 and the Pike/Spock Enterprise focus on S2. It wasn’t perfect, but I really liked it. But then something weird happened where the producers and showrunners “listened” to all the loud fans on the internet (for example, like that cat-themed dude and that NCC# dude who I will not directly name — their incessant complaining was drill-sergeant level, over-the-top) who had bitched and moaned about every little thing on the series for two years — the producers and show-runners then got all defensive, and ended up making unnecessary changes to the series to try to make it more Berman-like, and then it ended up pleasing no one by S4.

The original recipe for S1 and S2 of Michael saving the day against all odds, cool organic super-warp journeys across the galaxy and dark stuff happening that is endangering the Federation — that was all working and did not need to be fixed. I just wished they had stuck to that approach and not listened to the all the loud mouthed morons who were never going to like the series anyway, because by abandoning their original recipe for eth series, the result was not appreciated by the many core fans who loved the first two seasons.

My opinion!

The bridge crew has a lot of variety, everyone seems to have a personality. They are allowed some debate. They are exploring strange new worlds in an vastly unexplored galaxy. They can’t just radio Starfleet for instructions all the time.

I agree. SNW is hands-down the best Trek we have seen since DS9.

I’m not holding my breath. Both the Titan and Enterprise D sets have been thrown in the dumpster. And Matalas said a legacy show is not currently in the works.

I think that the ENT-D and Titan sets are terrible (outside the cool consoles to the side of the Titan which you occasionally see) but how do you know? Why would they throw these away, at least donate them or something? They could re use the chairs, etc.

According to Dave Blass, in an article for Variety, he says the Ent-D set has been put into archival storage after the 2 days of filming so its still accessible if needed

Read that too. They are keeping the Enterprise D set. They know what they have and so important to so many of us. The E-D is my favorite ship so very happy to hear this.

Yeah they are. I was so happy to hear that as well!

So maybe the adventures of the E-D will continue! :)

One problem we’re seeing yet again here is when characters are overused, they lose their impact each time. This is especially true for villains.

A key reason Khan remained so effective in the minds of fans after TWOK is because he was defeated once (in Space Seed), came back with a vengeance in the movie… and that was it. Went out in a blaze of glory.

… until JJ brought him back in an extremely clumsy way, for no good reason, when a new, interesting villain would have done nicely. (Yeah I know it was an alternate ‘verse version of Khan, but that doesn’t in any way undermine the point I’m making.)

And here we are with the Borg and their Queen having been defeated (-ish) so many times… and yet, back once again, because why? Nostalgia demands it? We need ‘closure’ once again for a show that had a killer series finale and four movies?

Vadic was a fantastic new villain. Truly interesting, and so well played. It truly feels like we should be approaching the season finale with her about to succeed in her dastardly plan, smoking her cigarillos and Amanda Plummer chewing the scenery. I fear what we’ll get in ep. 10 will be much less enjoyable than that would have been.

They just can’t stop themselves from going back to the same well over and over, even though they clearly are capable of dreaming up new characters, new plots, new stories. It all adds up to an inescapable feeling that we’re watching a high budget production of a fan fic script.




As overused as the Borg have been, I do think they’re the most fitting enemy. I always felt that Voyager kind of did them dirty by making them show up so much. Between that and the Queen (who I wish hadn’t existed) they’re maybe not the most original nemesis, but I still think they’re the most logical one. I think the only other fitting big bad for Picard to have to face down is Gul Madred, but with David Warner’s death a few years ago, that’s not really an option.

A stray observation: it’s really interesting (and kind of confusing) to see two sides warring over this show. It’s either blatant and unoriginal “fan service” or the best Trek ever. I don’t know that it’s so simple as those two options.

Sure, PIC S03 has a lot of little things that just tie back to TNG. It has the old gang together again. This was always by design, and I don’t know that it’s a fair criticism of the show. That was the goal from the get, and it’s not so full of plot devices and references to the past that you can’t understand the import of what’s happening without having a deep lore understanding.

It’s also not the best Trek out there, or even currently. While the first 4 episodes were arguably the best TNG movie, it has kind of slowed. Dragging out a mystery box at the core of things. Some silly leaps in logic and understanding. SNW, for all the problems of being a prequel thing and fitting in with the timeline in maybe awkward ways to me feels like the first live action Trek in a long while. The crew goes to a place, has to deal with an allegory/topical issue, overcomes it with a combination of critical thinking and the strengths of others and then POOF, off to the next place. I’m here for that. I’ve missed that. Picard, as much as I’m enjoying it now, doesn’t have that.

For me, it’s a delight because I feel like I recognize Picard for the first time since Generations. In First Contact he kind of went weird action hero. Saying to kill assimilated crewmates because “it would be doing them a favor,” seemed really at odds with him being the man who was brought back from the collective. He never really lost that in the other TNG movies, and then S01 and S02 of PIC he felt… weird. Maudlin and rambling. Not just an older version of JLP, but someone fundamentally different. Between that and the weird tone of the series, I didn’t feel like I was even watching a Trek show. To me, season 3 is the first season of Picard that feels like I’m watching Star Trek. It’s a good long movie. Maybe could be trimmed. Not perfect. But I’m happy to see it. I feel like Matalas could do another show that felt similar. Another good and entertaining long form movie. Lots of options out there.

The crew goes to a place, has to deal with an allegory/topical issue, overcomes it with a combination of critical thinking and the strengths of others and then POOF, off to the next place.”

This is as perfect an encapsulation of what Trek ‘should’ be (for my tastes at least) as I’ve heard.

Hey, our tastes align! :)

I hope this is the last of the Borg for a very long time. They just aren’t menacing or scary enough to be a major villain anymore.

I also hope this is the last of Earth being in danger for a long time too. I’m not sure why, but I find the story to be more engaging when it is just the ship and crew in danger.

Still, this season has been enjoyable and I am looking forward to the finale.

Argh, they brought back the Borg, the real scary Borg who use people involuntarily for a collective unimind and we’ll get them for 120 minutes before they outlive their welcome. This should have been a whole follow up season (especially lasting implications of them using Picard, the Borg stance on how robo-Picard tech makes AI=life, can the Borg assimilate Changlings that can turn into anything, etc).
I mean zombie shows are in are they not? Why would you not make this a season long arc and really up the scare factor.
On the plus side, given the Borg will have to be done and they’ve totally overplayed the Earth in danger stories, Strange New Worlds is totally where it is at.

I never thought the Pah Wraiths would be involved. I understood the Changelings but the Pah Wraiths felt a little too left field, but would’ve been curious how it was done if they were used.

I actually love the idea of the Borg being back, especially seeing what they done with them. But yeah even I kind of rolled my eyes when it was revealed to be them lol. Not just for using them, but the loooooong set up and reveal to finally get there. Honestly they should’ve been revealed in episode 7.

But yeah all the moaning about the Borg, the reality is they are still very very popular in the fanbase. I said this in another thread, but a year from now I won’t be shocked these last two episodes will not just be the highest rated episodes but the most watched again and again because the Borg are there. I do think many hardcore fans are tired of them, but there are tons of casual fans who watch episodes just to see the Borg and watch in droves.

I still think they are fascinating species and I still love the fact even though the Federation has been dealing with them for 30 years now, they still have no clue on what to do with them and clearly still very terrified of them. No one in Starfleet for example has ever been scared of the Romulans, Klingons or Cardassians. They saw them as a threat and a challenge at times, but no direct fear of them. The Borg is really the only foe that Starfleet still outright fears three decades later and for good reason lol. It’s why I still love them as villains.

If the Borg gone boring, then perhaps we could grown this Mechanic Lifeforms from the Rift at the end of Season 1 for their next Star-fleet Big Enemies

Perhaps… someone of the Writer Room play, played or love Elite Dangerous Thargoid’s foes. Make these mechanic lifeforms similar to them and Voila!. But they should “ask” the Game Studio if they could copy/borrow a little bit their Design like they borrowed the STO Ships for this Show

Perhaps even Join Venture with them.. but here i go a bit overboard gain

if this idea find his way into the Room and help giving them a Spark, Your Welcome. In the end it’s a Win-Win.

I actually had no problems of how they set up the Borg in season one, but then they proceeded to do nothing else with them. They were literally and I mean literally just in the background for nearly all season.

Many were waiting for another shoe to drop and sadly it never came. It would’ve at least made it feel worth it if it brought in the real Borg at the end. Again, something I assumed they were setting up but nope! ;)

Well, perhaps Janeway crippled them more then we expected. Perhaps Janeway real found the High Queen and she is not amused about her.


Species 8472 are the Borg’s Archenemy. Well in the Gama Quadrant. There are still strong foes out there…Let this idea with the Ships be from them and they want to Destroy the Borg once and for all and sadly Starfleet and all other “possible” Borg Sleepers get in the way…

Well that’s fine. I’m only saying is if you are going to bring them in, do SOMETHING with them. They did nothing other than taking the cube and dumping it on Synth planet where we never heard from them again.

In fact I think many of assumed that originally the Artifact (name of the cube in case anyone forgot) was just a dead cube sitting in space the Romulans found thanks to Janeway’s virus. I remember a lot of people throwing out that theory. But then we found out it had nothing to do with that. And again, that’s fine, I have no issues with that. But they never gave us another reason why they should even be in the season and it was another reason season one failed for so many people, me included.

And I hope we do see Species 8472 again. I would love to see where they are by the 32nd century in fact. I know at the time they were limited in their appearance because CGI was still very new and expensive then. But now they can really use them and it would be cool if they and the Borg are still settling scores with each other.

About 8472:

They could got a little bit of the Changeling used the Vorta’s. I mean they could use some of them to communicate trough Telephaty or Host controlling and voila! Without the Dominion War anymore these Vorta’s desperated seek out new “Gods” to server for. Is it not hidden in their DNA Code? But without the Jem’hadar. They lost their “Drugs” and they become independent from the Dominion and Vortas

  • Pro:

Reuse of controllers Races

  • Con:

“beeing there, done that, gone next!” These are old known Races

Or maybe the Vorta would have been changed not to see other species as gods anymore

Sounds plausible, too. A long time is also behind them

But it’s better to create new enemies to “bring the war to them!”. The treachery and conspiracy of the “Bad Admirals” and also the Borgs is getting tiresome. But also “revenge” as in the Kelvin timeline is not really appropriate in my eyes. Just a new enemy that Starfleet might have to push back first and then start to understand their drive. Let’s see

or they could copy SNW format just doing them in the Picard’s 3 Timeline present. We have fresh new Romulan Republic, that need help from Starfleet. to fight their own old ghosts and build a future for them, too

I feel like the why and how of this changeling/borg alliance desperately needs some exposition and won’t get anything more than we currently have.

One thing I am enjoying about streaming Trek. The catsuits are gone.

OK, since, per usual, since there is soooooo much whining about the Borg being back, I was curious to see how well their episodes were rated throughout the franchise, ie, see if that fatigue represented people watching them. And JUST like I thought, not at all. I went on IMDB and I looked every rating for every direct Borg story (ie, any episode the directly appear in) And I only chose IMDB because its the only site I know that rates episodes individually.

Now I did not include any of Picard season one because they were literally just in the background all season. And I mean that literally lol. So I did not include those episodes. But here is how they stack up overall on IMDB at least. And these are all rated 1-10.


The Next Generation

Q-Who: 8.9
BOBW pt 1: 9.3 (The second highest rated episode of the show)
BOBW pt. 2 9.2 (The third highest rated episode of the show)
I Borg: 8.8
Descent pt 1: 8.1
Descent pt. 2: 7.7

All very strongly rated episodes although Descent pt 2 took a dip. But most of these are some of the strongest TNG episodes, period.


Unity: 7.8
Scorpion pt. 1 8.9 (The second highest rated episode of the show)
Scorpion pt. 2:8.8 (The third highest rated episode of the show)
Dark Frontier: 8.5
Survival Instinct: 7.6
Collective 7.3
Unimatrix Zero pt 1 and 2: 7.9 (same rating)
Endgame: 8.5

Again, these are all generally highly rated episodes. Only one of them falls below 7.5.


Regeneration: 8.5 (The second highest rated episode of the show)


The Star Gazer: 8.0
Farewell: 6.8 (It’s easily the lowest rated Borg episode but I don’t blame that solely on the Borg ;))
Vox: 9.5 (Currently the highest rated episode in all of Star Trek. The opposite take, I don’t think it’s due to the Borg’s presence alone either obviously.)


Let Sleeping Borgs Lie: 7.7.


So there you have it. Even though there has been a lot of Borg episodes, especially once Voyager dealt with them, they are still solid ratings by fans throughout the franchise. For these episodes to fall even in the low 7’s (and ONLY 2 at that) is still good because the average rated Star Trek episode seems to fall between 7.0-7.5; at least on IMDB. There is only one below average episode, it comes from the dreaded season 2 finale of Picard.

The fact nearly all the shows minus Prodigy have episodes rated an 8 above for a species people keep saying they are tired of watching really says it all IMO.

Wow interesting ratings! I probably rated most of those 10s myself! 😁

Actually I always hated The Collective and Survival Instinct could’ve been better. Not big on Unimatrix Zero or Descent either.

But all the rest I watched most of them at least 20 times over the years. I even have a Borg watch day list I do every year and I included Let Sleeping Borg Lie and now Vox and The Last Generation on it. I know the finale is going to be awesome! As soon as the season is over I will do my Borg watch.

I’m super happy they were the surprise villains! And Vox is my favorite episode of the season. I can’t wait to see the Borg Queen again next week.

For me I been in Star Trek heaven for 9 weeks now. Best Star Trek since Voyager ended! 👍🖖

You know what before I get 20 people asking what’s my Borg watch list I figure I save time and just list them. You’re welcome guys! 😉

This is how I watch in order:

-Q Who
-First Contact
-Dark Frontier
-Let Sleeping Borg Lie
-Vox/The Last Generation

That’s my glorious list.

And I agree with you about Picard season one, the Borg are there but not really. Such a weird decision to not actually use them but welcome to Kurtzman Trek. 🙄

LOL I actually saw your list on Trekcore a day ago. Great list! I do have a question and I’m about to nerd it up, but why is Regeneration first? I notice when people do Borg watches or watch the show in chronological order, Regeneration is usually placed after First Contact since it’s basically a sequel to the movie. In fact when I did my grand rewatch a few years back I followed a chronological guide and Regeneration came after FC.

Actually I used to watch Regeneration after FC for years because I saw it as a sequel too.

But it always bothered me how out of joint it felt when you’re watching things in order. It felt out of place to jump to the 22nd century and then you’re back 200 years later in the Delta Quadrant after that. Very disjointed.

This way works better because it all flows century to century. And actually Regeneration works great as the beginning of the Borg story because there is enough said in the episode to cover all the FC bases. Like when Archer talks to T’Pol about the speech Cochran gave referencing the Borg trying to stop first contact and the E-E crew being there to stop them. That’s really all you need not to feel out of place.

And then finding out they transmitted a signal to the Borg home world taking 200 years to get there. It explains perfectly why the Borg is even so close to Federation space when we finally get to the 24th century before Q shows up wanting to be part of the crew and it goes downhill fast! 😂😥

I guess you can tell I really thought this through. 😂 You’re not the only one nerding it up. But I love the time loop between FC and Regeneration and how it plays out like the chicken or the egg..This is what makes Star Trek a fun universe to be in.

Temporal investigations should have had the command crew’s hide for going back to the future w/o first ‘taking care of’ the drifting Borg. Could have happened as a side job while tucking all those lifeboats back into the hull.

Hey Kmart, I was just thinking about you. Any word if your article about Picard S3 will ever be released?

Yeah, I put in links to the article a couple of times in different threads (once in response to a Michael Hall post last week), but I think admin must have removed them, so maybe those kinds of direct links aren’t permitted. If you go to https://issuu.com and then type in icgmagazine, it’s the first one that comes up. It’s not my title, but the content is intact, although cutting it down to that size was very painful!

And also you’re right!

That is definitely a very logical approach. And you’re right, it is a little odd to go from First Contact to Regeneration and then Scorpion. This way feels more like a natural build up. I’ve never done a Borg watch but now I’m tempted lol.

lol what are you even trying to prove? Because all that says is people really like the Borg, and they’ve been involved in a lot of great episodes (though several of them aren’t nearly as good as their IMDb ratings make them sound).

So yes, we know, people LOVE the Borg, I’ve been saying this for literally years, and even a dozen times on this very site in recent weeks. And that’s precisely why I think the Borg’s inclusion in S1/S2 (if not this season) was a studio mandate.

If you look at Netflix’s infographic showing “most rewatched” episodes of Trek, the top 8 are all Borg episodes or Seven of Nine episodes. I suspect it was similar after CBSAA launched, and they took one look and said, “Kurtzman, you must include the borg and seven of nine in EVERY season of Picard!”

Yeah that’s what I was trying to prove lol. And why they will keep using them for years to come. When they show up, people still get excited even if others had their fill.

Never satisfied…never happy. Always critical. They always know better. All so-called experts in thinking they are better storytellers than the show’s creators. Such is the modern state of toxic fandom.

Not me! Not a single complaint! I’m loving it all!

But it’s OK if others don’t like it though. People will have their own take on things. I thought seasons 1 and 2 sucked to holy hell. But I talked to people who actually liked them. They both really enjoyed it! 😁

Oh boo hoo the fandom doesn’t uncritically accept everything, it’s a terrible thing. Fans should just like everything they see and not have opinions. 🙄

It’s OK to be critical. It’s OK to not like something. Even with my bevy of complaints over the last few episodes, i’m still largely enjoying it. The negativity that frustrates me is over nitpicky details, or people who ignore problems in the story while trashing other shows that have the exact same problems.

Do you really want everyone to hold the same opinion, though? Think about that. Because when you have a large number of people who look down on dissent, who praise whatever is given to them, that’s no longer a “cult favorite.” That’s a cult.

I wish they didn’t use the Borg again this season and i think they should of stuck with the ‘evolved’ changelings as the main villain. With them some how finding the Dominion fleet that the Prophets made disappear and had the fleet waiting to strike on Founders Day. I think that would of made a better story then the current story which imo I’m not enjoying all that much. I am enjoying seeing the Enterprise D again and i hope we see her in battle again.

The Borg need to take something for varicose veins.

I’m just gonna say the plot contrivance of “the transporter altering people’s DNA” got the biggest eyeroll from me.

Either the transporter is something that does a quantum Dirac jump of your atoms’ state to an equivalent location somewhere else, as outlined in James Blish’s 1970 novel Spock Must Die!, or it’s a magic nonsense machine that “disassembles and rebuilds people based on their DNA.”

If it’s the latter, you get nonsense episodes like “Unnatural Selection” and “Rascals”, and concepts like “transporter psychosis” which presume that the transporter can damage your molecules selectively.

(And to be frank, the very idea that you’re consciously aware during transport as in “Realm of Fear” makes no sense, if you’re completely disassembled into some sort of “matter stream” in order to be rebuilt, molecule by molecule.)

A Dirac jump would be instantaneous, and perceived as such by the person being transported, and shouldn’t affect any molecular bonds / chemical interactions whatsoever. In fact if anything, people should arrive at their destination with a “pop” of air molecules being displaced, but that’d look a bit silly….

The idea that the computer somehow uses “common DNA patterns” to rebuild people, that a particular sequence is labelled as “common biology,” shows that they think of the transporter as some sort of computer code compiler, and/or some sort of mechanism that requires compression algorithms like we do for image and movie files on the Internet.

[insert “that’s not how it works…that’s not how ANY of this works” meme here]

I’m tempted to agree, except it’s sort of par for the course when it comes to Trek. Even the best episodes were full of nonsense technobabble that sounds good at first but doesn’t pass a basic scrutiny test.

Honestly, it’s part of the charm of the franchise for me. That WASN’T my issue with the episode.

The idea that the computer somehow uses “common DNA patterns” to rebuild people, that a particular sequence is labelled as “common biology,” shows that they think of the transporter as some sort of computer code compiler, and/or some sort of mechanism that requires compression algorithms like we do for image and movie files on the Internet.

Yeah, this implies that you are not exactly the same person — that you die every time you go through this. And even worse, it’s like Jurassic Park where they didn’t have all the DNA they needed, and so they substituted amphibian DNA to get a complete sequence — so the dinos are fully real dinos from the past.

This is not consistent with past Trek, and it’s a shame they want to this Lower Decks sort of lazy level of writing.

“so the dinos are NOT fully real dinos from the past”

Oh, I get it. If they don’t do this, the Borg are screwed.