Season 2 of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds has just begun with Thursday’s release of the season premiere. TrekMovie had an exclusive discussion with executive producers and co-showrunners Akiva Goldsman and Henry Alonso Myers about “The Broken Circle,” which they co-wrote, and the upcoming season. We also talked about how the ongoing WGA strike is impacting season 3.
A big part of the episode is the absence of Captain Pike. Did you see this as a risk and is this an indication of moving to a more ensemble approach like DS9, compared to TOS?
Akiva Goldsman: I think we’ve always been an ensemble show, honestly. But what I think is delightful about this show is we drop different narrators in. We were very Pike-heavy in season 1 and we sort of took this as an opportunity to sort of mix things up a little bit. And then we are very Pike-heavy for the rest of the season. We like to shake things up. We think that’s fun. So far we’re getting away with it. The first episode is typical but also atypical because it’s so typical, and the next two are really atypical. So, we just tried to come out of the gate a little different.
This first episode was similar to how the season 1 premiere set up a big season-long character arc, in that case, Pike’s existential crisis. Would you say that Spock’s struggle with emotion is the big character arc for this season? That seems to be his big thing for the season.
Henry Alonso Myers: It is a big thing that he goes through because it’s emotional and real. And it’s something that the character will be thinking about from episode to episode. It doesn’t disappear. And that’s sort of the way they all work.
Akiva Goldsman: I would go further than that because one can often say it’s Spock struggle with emotion, but we’re doing something different. We’re having Spock experiment with emotion, right? We’re seeing Spock in emotion. I always say this, “Poor Spock is always determined by the way he entered the stage,” which was TOS. But fundamentally, if you look at Spock’s life across the movies and the series, it’s a waveform. Think about just Spock in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, right? He’s not somebody who is logical all the time if you look through his life. His life is a struggle between emotion and logic. I would say this season is an arc about emotion.
Henry Alonso Myers: And to that extent, we try to approach that with everybody. Everyone gets their moment that will lift them up and carry us through the season. Those things don’t disappear, although you don’t have to have watched them in order to watch future episodes.
Jess Bush as Chapel and Ethan Peck in “The Broken Circle” (Paramount+)
Speaking of character arcs, you are bringing back the Klingons and the war which was a big deal in season 1 of Discovery. Now we see how M’Benga, Chapel, and to a lesser extent, Ortegas, are all war veterans. Are you using the Klingon War to explore political issues and PTSD for season 2?
Henry Alonso Myers: We’re absolutely getting into an emotional area, because part of this premiere was to open up a new and very real area, both for M’Benga and Chapel that we hadn’t gone into before. We implied but we hadn’t talked about it. We wanted to give them a new area that would allow them something to perform. I can’t really speak to the specifics, but yes, we will go there.
Was there any debate about the design of the Klingons? You have kind of settled back into the more Next Gen look instead of the TOS or Discovery look.
Henry Alonso Myers: We are grateful to have many of the folks who work on Discovery also work on our show. We got to hear about all the things that worked really well for them, and all the things that were challenging. We’re trying to find something that kind of met the ground in between our different series, but still felt like Klingons to people who are fans of the of the shows. A lot of this was, quite simply, about production. We were trying to make the Klingons something we could produce and actually do. But, it was also really important that were telling a story that that has the emotions and war and things that actually come out of Disco into our show and how that would affect the people in it. We’re not trying to make them feel different. We’re trying to make them feel like if you had all the money in the world, and you were making shows in 2022, what would you do? You would try to do it again but try to make it look as good as possible in the manner that we do today.
Well, hardcore purists could say that you would honor The Original Series to have white guys in blackface and beards [laughs]. But Enterprise did offer the opportunity for smooth-headed old-school Klingons. Could we see that kind of look on the show?
Henry Alonso Myers: [laughs] Akiva, what do you think?
Akiva Goldsman: I think we can go into virus narratives, but I think fundamentally, these are our Klingons for today. As I have said, our transporter room doesn’t look like Disco’s. I was on season 1 of Discovery so I’ve only affection for it. But our show has its own aesthetic, which honors as its source material, typically TOS. So for us, this was an evolution of the aesthetic.
Henry Alonso Myers: I also want to say this, personally, I love the Star Trek movies. I saw them when I was very young when they were coming out and I got really excited about it. That felt like the same universe in its own way too. We want something that will please a lot of people, including us.
Abbas Wahab as Ror’Queg and Babs Olusanmokun as M’Benga appearing in “The Broken Circle” (Paramount+)
This episode establishes the Gorn as a continuing big bad for the season, or maybe the series. So the question is: why the Gorn who have some tricky canon issues instead of using the opportunity to create your own whole new villain species?
Akiva Goldsman: Because for me, storytelling beats canon. And that may not be popular, but it’s the truth. So when they can go hand-in-hand, great. But when I was writing the pilot, I was looking for something that was just monstrous, that was Cthulhu-like. Something that was unthinking. Our shows are empathy generators and I wanted to have an element which was in relief of that. I wanted something that you couldn’t identify with, something that was utterly alien, something that was all appetite and instinct in ways that we couldn’t quite understand. And I also wanted to signal place and time in a way that personally I found interesting. So you should definitely blame me for this one.
Henry Alonso Myers: I’ll get in the way if you need help, because I believe in what we’ve done.
Akiva Goldsman: And I like to take things that were not necessarily evolved, but are iconic and evolve them. Because that’s part of what we’re doing here, which is giving–we hope–emotional depth to stories that, weirdly, we know the endings of. So, will I get rid of an idea because it violates a sentence in canon? Probably not.
Henry Alonso Myers: We also had a unique opportunity because it’s part of how we like to approach it. Our show, in many ways, is if you look at The Original Series and imagine what if they were doing it today? How would they try to make it look? What opportunity would they have? What they were doing was very high-end and very cool for the time, but we’re not in that time. Our audience is not in that time. So we have an opportunity to do something else, to do something bigger or different. And that’s great.
Gorn from “All Those Who Wander”
Have you set a new date to start production on season 3 in hopes of the end of the WGA strike?
Akiva Goldsman: We had a date and we had to abort it because we are striking and we stand in solidarity with our writing brethren. So, when the strike is over, then we will set a new date.
More SNW coverage from TrekMovie
Check out our previous interviews with: Anson Mount & Rebecca Romijn. Ethan Peck & Paul Wesley, Celia Rose Gooding & Melissa Navia, and Babs Olusanmokun & Jess Bush. For more on the season premiere check out our recap/review and All Access Star Trek podcast discussion.
You may also want to check out:
- TrekMovie.com’s early review of season 2
- London Comic Con SNW panel report
- Preview of season 2, episode 1
- Episode 2 and 3 images
And here again is the trailer…
Season 2 premiered Thursday, June 15 on Paramount+ in the U.S, the U.K., Australia, Latin America, Brazil, France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Austria. The second season will also be available to stream on Paramount+ in South Korea, with premiere dates to be announced at a later date. Following the premiere, new episodes of the 10-episode season will drop weekly on Thursdays.
Find more stories on the Star Trek Universe.
Akiva Goldsman: Because for me, storytelling beats canon
They never actually cared about canon, but now they are just straight admitting it.
I’m worried about this season. Every interview has someone saying something along the lines of “this is different than other trek” or “We are going a new direction”. That is exactly what they said for Discovery and seasons one and two of Picard.
I’m hearing you, and agreeing with you. Whenever Goldman makes any comment, I cringe.
Akiva Goldsman is a hack writer, which is both popular and the truth.
truth 100%
Yet most of you commenting “atta boying” your piling on insults of Akiva Goldsman here continuously drool over Lower Decks. My goodness, the hypocrisy.
“I’m laughing at the superior intellect.”
Stop trying to make “fetch” happen.
Goldsman has nothing to do with Lower Decks. That’s why it’s good.
Lower Decks is the worst of the Kurtzman era series, so you just unintentionally proved the opposite of what you were trying to convey here.
I gotta side with you there. Star Trek should be treated seriously. Not Rick and Morty rated XXX humor. I watched the “Naked Time” episode of Lower Decks with my 17 year old daughter, and then the gay orgy scene happened. I was so ashamed to be a Trek fan that day. I apologized to my daughter and never watched the show again. They took a franchise that could be enjoyed by the whole family, and turned it into juvenile smut.
Star Trek should be treated seriously. Not Rick and Morty rated XXX humor. I watched the “Naked Time” episode of Lower Decks with my 17 year old daughter, and then the gay orgy scene happened. I was so ashamed to be a Trek fan that day. I apologized to my daughter and never watched the show again. They took a franchise that could be enjoyed by the whole family, and turned it into juvenile smut.
THANK YOU!!! EXACTLY!!!
Lower Decks is embarrassing to me as a Star Trek fan as well. It never should have been made.
You and I are in the minority unfortunately. We’re not alone per se, but so many people like it, and I don’t understand why, because, by definition, Star Trek is supposed to be a classy, literal, and deeply philosophical science fiction adventure show. Personally, I think they missed out years ago by not creating Star Trek: The Next Generation Animated Series, like they did for TOS, but with better animation. THAT would be nice!
You mean the show that SNW is using as material for one of its episodes?
Apparently, Goldsman and the people behind SNW think it’s good too.
Nah, that’s just the pressure all franchises are under to connect all the shows with cameos. You can bet that Goldsman had ZERO to do with it.
He’s the showrunner though. He gets the final say on what goes.
On inserting cameos from other series in the franchise though, while you are right that theoretically he gets the final say, I kind of doubt that’s how this works out.
So say you are AG and Kurtzman and the Director of TV at P+ ask you do a LDS-SNW crossover ep. Do you fall on your sword and say “absolutely not?” I mean you could, but I kind of doubt that would happen very often in any franchise. What the showrunner does get to do though is work with the writing team to creatively make it happen in the best way they can.
Am I wrong?
No, actually. I’m not an expert on studio politics etc.So I know I should be careful about assuming anything. But yeah, shit does roll downhill as they say.
Actually it was the other showrunner idea to combine the two shows, Henry Alonso Myers. He said in an interview he wanted to do a crossover story with one of the other shows and Lower Decks was the first show to come to mind. But he thought no way in Pakled hell would that ever get approved. But then Kurtzman called him and asked him what did he think about doing a LDS and SNW crossover story and the rest is history. ;)
That’s what scares me lol.
I don’t. Lower Decks is vulgar, and embarrassing.
Lower Decks is vulgar, and embarrassing.
100%
He said that??? What a jerk!
That’s not very nice. With all due respect there’s a lot of intellectual dishonesty on these message boards. Star Trek writers have always changed Canon midstream through every incarnation. It’s nothing new. The Canon of the original series was dead the moment they introduced Michael Burnham. Her presence disrupts everything you thought you knew about Spock and the original series..
.
There are plenty of instances where Canon was changed because of a better story…. They are not wiping out the original series they are just reimagining it and that’s okay
I have read some articles about the season, including the finale that some have said it actually is attempting to wipe over the Original Series. If what is said in them is true I can’t say I disagree.
Oh come on. Yes, there have been little tweaks to canon over the decades here and there. But NEVER to this degree in a matter of a few short years. Its not just once in a while. Its EVERY EPISODE. TNG had a few “violations” over the course of the series, but they were minor, and didn’t affect the lore overall. I’ve never seen such arrogance, and carelessness from the showrunners on MAJOR points of history and lore. Why is Spock experimenting with emotions? That’s offensive to all Vulcans, and Spock in particular, because he chose the VUlcan way of life, and had to hide his emotions even MORE because he was half-human. That ruins the entire character of Spock, and what does that say about all Vulcans? Its a disaster of epic proportions.
I will agree with you 100%. Discovery was an abomination, and was the beginning of the end for Star Trek. Although some would argue (myself included) that the downfall started in 2009, with JJ Abrams. But Spock never had a sister.Period. For us fans, Star Trek is LYING to you. Its a fraud.
Making statements that are utterly unknowable by us the viewer is utterly irrational. Let’s be very clear your statement is without merit.
Here’s an example. I can care about many different things. But that caring doesn’t denote the same level of opinion. For example, I care about keeping my car clean. Versus I care about the well being of my mother. Which would you reasonably think has the stronger connection? I would certainly hope you feel its my caring for my Mother.
Trek from literally the very first episode through every series and film has been perfectly ok with challenging to outright changing material that preceded it. From very minor details to details that are much more significant. To hold any producers to a standard you don’t appear to hold to the others going back to the very beginning is utter hypocrisy.
Now just changing that to statements like I wish they would have done thins or not done that. Perfectly reasonable. Making statements like I don’t like this or that. That’s perfectly valid. But making statements that they never cared about canon, is again something you can make with any knowledge whatsoever.
And you do realize that producers have been saying things like “this is different than other trek” going back all the way to when the TOS film series started. And has been said about every Trek series that was created after TOS itself (the only exception is I don’t have any memories of producers taking about TOS the animated series when it came out, but I also have no memories of any sort of hearing any comments about from the producers of TOS the animated series about anything), at one time or another.
The difference is that these are the same exact people who said nearly the same exact things for two shows that did very poorly. And it seems like they are actively refusing to learn from their mistakes.
To be clear I think Star Trek does need something new, maybe like a Jules Vern style adventure. Because falling back on the same tropes over and over will get boring eventually
But I have been conditioned by these people in charge of Trek right now to be worried when they say “different”. Because when they say it, it’s almost like they are acknowledging that people won’t like what they are trying to do (like how Mark Hamill tried to warn us about The Last Jedi).
But my biggest issue is that if the writers actively don’t care about canon, THEN DON’T MAKE A PREQUEL SHOW. And if you really want to make a prequel then get people who actually understand the canon and who can write actual good stories within it.
Exactly. This guy had the exact same issues with Discovery and look what they ultimately did with that show? And now he’s on another show literally making the same mistakes, just in a different way.
No one was ever begging for a Star Trek prequel in the first place. When Enterprise and Discovery was announced they got a lot of push back from fans over it. Now when SNW was announced, it was truthfully very different and a lot of fanfare over it. But of course that was because people just fell in love with Pike and loved the idea of being back on the original Enterprise. But that didn’t mean you could just do anything with it and fans wouldn’t care either. If anything this show had to get it more right than the other two since they are using so many of the original characters and basically treating it more as a TOS prequel show more so than a Pike show.
I just don’t understand this need to make any prequels to be honest with you when it’s clearly hard to just make a faithful one. Just do something new with original stories and characters and most fans seem more happy about that anyway.
I have to agree. They dont learn! Like, what is wrong with them? “Okay, we should stop the Gen Z language and use the classical English so it can remain timeless. The fans don’t like it”. SNW takes place in 2024 on the SET of a spaceship. That’s it. “Okay, we should make Spock the coolest guy in the room, who should always offer smart analysis, not being talked down to. The fans seem to hate that. Lets make him more mature, and sophisticated”. Nope. Star Trek is feminism gone berserk. Lets let the guys be bosses once in a while, and stop being dominated by all the women all the time. Our largly male audience resents it.” Yeah right! “Okay, we should probably stop using actual stories and references form Star Trek. Instead of a show ABOUT Star Trek, lets earn the title of our show, and put them out there, facing some weird situations, and moral dilemmas”. Nope, they bring back the Gorn, who shouldn’t be in this show canon-wise. Rip off Balance of Terror because they couldn’t come up with a story on their own, Like Enterprise did with Silent Enemy. They made all these mistakes with Discovery, and keep making the same mistakes. The definition of insanity. Akiva Goldsman might be a nice guy, I don’t know. But he’s completely incompetent, and so is his staff.
You had me until the feminism stuff and then you lost me lol.
But I agree with the language issue. I’m not THAT bothered personally but yes I wish they would make it sound less contemporary. But this is more a NuTrek problem overall IMO.
And they could definitely do more original stories and not copy so much from others like the Alien episode. That was just too much IMO. I really loved Quality of Mercy but I hope that was a one time thing they don’t ever retry.
As for prequels, yeah no one seem that interested in them even though we have three now, but SNW was definitely the exception. People really wanted this thing. Now that they got it, they really should try harder to feel like a proper one and not one that feels like it’s really taking place in an alternate universe as some fans are now claiming this show is in.
For the record, I think most people do love this show, including even people who have issues with it because its the most ‘Trek-y’ show since Enterprise easily. But that goodwill can stall quickly if they are just breaking canon on a major level.
+1.
+2
You guys forget that SNW wouldn’t be a show until the fans started wanting it and having a petition to make the show. And due to the popularity of Pike on Discovery… they went ahead with it. And, maybe the same thing will happen with Legacy. The fans want it… but the fans will end up complaining about it too. That’s what the “fans” do, do they not?
Yeah that’s very true, but no one told them they had to make it an outright TOS prequel either. That’s what is so frustrating about this in a way because fans were happy just to have Pike, Spock and Number One.They didn’t have to go any farther than that and people would’ve been happy with that. An obvious TOS appearance here and there, but just keep the focus on them.
But then, as I predicted long ago, they turned the show into TOS basically stuffing it with just too many TOS characters too fast. Again, I think adding one or two more would’ve been fine. Uhura seems obvious if for no other reason to add another woman and POC there. And there is just not a lot about Uhura, so even better. She can get real development for the first time in 55 years lol. And yeah bring in M’Benga or maybe Chapel. One or the other but NOT both. And I think for canon sake M’Benga would’ve been the better choice because know next to nothing about him and we wouldn’t have to suffer the eye rolling Spock and Chapel love triangle. And April is fine to have because he’s never really been part of canon anyway but someone TOS fans knows.
But they couldn’t just stop there either. Now we have BOTH Kirks on the show, which neither needed to be there and a Noonien Sigh which just screams Goldsman to a crazy level and just to have an excuse to mention Khan (and yes, maybe more). Then they brought in T’Pring, which again, is fine but it goes completely against canon. Sybok is coming, which I’m happy to have, but they could’ve waited until later to introduce him since T’Pring is already enough. And now Carol Marcus is supposedly showing up this season lol. Like WHY does she have to be there at all??? Obviously to be part of Kirk’s story line.It’s fan service on top of fan service.
That’s the problem, the show is SUPPOSE to be about Pike and yet they are stuffing all these side characters from TOS because that’s what the fans knows. And I know another TOS character is showing up as well. I haven’t seen anyone else bring them up yet so I guess it would be a spoiler if they are mentioned. But their presence MAKES sense and unlike Marcus is tied to an actual main character so I can understand that.
But it’s just too much for a show that has only made 20 episodes so far. And I won’t be shocked if Scotty or McCoy shows up by the end of season 2 either.
The show is not “supposed” to be about anything other than what the producers decide it is “supposed” to be about. In the case of SNW, they have decided it is about more than just Pike, and so it is.
Yeah and they are turning it into a mess just two seasons in.
I’m not going to rate it now. I thought the first episode was fine and I still think overall it’s going to be good season even if it’s not what I was expecting. But it’s also clear by Goldsman remarks they know they basically ignored canon to make what they wanted and you can’t exactly blame people for being upset about it.
I just don’t get it. If you want to make a prequel a TOS prequel, fine, then DO IT RIGHT! But if you’re just going to ignore anything you either don’t like or impedes the story you want to tell, then just call it a REBOOT and then just do what you want. What is wrong with that?? You have to choose one or the other but you can’t do both. Discovery tried to thread the line as well and we saw how well that worked out.
I don’t think this show turned into TOS. Hell I WISH it turned into TOS. Just adding some characters from TOS doesn’t turn it into that. This show is basically Star Trek Discovery in episodic format. In fact, this show is the anti-TOS show.
I do agree they have brought in way too many TOS characters. Even M’Benga, which I think had potential to be a good add, really doesn’t belong unless the argument is he was essentially there mainly as a Vulcan specialist because Spock was on board. Yeah, that’s a stretch. But I still think it does not bode well because we know his future is to get demoted when McCoy comes in. I still want to know where is Colt & Boyce but I digress…
In the end in a round about way we tend to agree here. Too many TOS characters. (To me Scotty was the only one who even made a lick of sense to be there and even then he absolutely should NOT have been Chief Engineer). And the Khan connection… Everyone knows about T’Pring… A Chapel-Spock-T’Pring love triangle? Puh-lease.
I don’t mean completely obviously, but it’s clearly going that direction, that’s all. It’s not meant to be a Pike show so much as it seems to be foreshadowing all the big stories in TOS from Balance of Terror to Amok Time. That’s what I mean, it just feels like one set up after another for what we know is coming. Of course, I expect to have Easter eggs and hints about the future but it’s so blatant with it. Many of the characters who we know will serve on the Enterprise is already on it years before TOS starts and it’s captain, Kirk, is already around and will be hanging out with them for what, 5 years before he takes command??
I don’t know how it feels like a Discovery show? Not a single Discovery character has even showed up on it so far. It would’ve made so much sense if L’Rell showed up in a cameo in episode 1, but nope. They have actively retcon basically every visual element of that show from the Klingons to the uniforms. The technology itself has even been down graded and why we don’t see any holograms and (thankfully) no spore drives. So I don’t know how you can say that. They spend very little time referencing that show outside of the first episode and episode 4 where Spock mentioned he had a sister.
I don’t really see them foreshadowing anything from TOS. Sure they lifted a few things but they can’t help but change things up however it suits them. The show tends to honor and obey far more from Star Trek Discovery than it ever has from TOS. The look & feel is more Star Trek Discovery than TOS. This would be true even if no character from that show that stayed behind ever shows up.
How do you not see them foreshadowing anything from TOS?? They literally had a scene of Spock dreaming fighting himself for T’Pring from Amok Time lol. How much more literal can you get?? Did you also miss the entire season finale of Pike replacing Kirk in Balance of Terror? Bro, they made it nearly shot for shot, yes?
Did Sybok come from TOS or Discovery? How about Kirk?
That’s what I’m talking about. Now you give me some examples of how it feels like Discovery outside of both of them being made in a more modern time?
I know you’re not a fan of this show but it’s bending over backwards to make people think of TOS, not Discovery. It’s silly to suggest otherwise.
The look of the ship. The lighting. The sets. The costumes. (None of those are subject to the time the show is made. They fact is nothing on that ship comes close to evoking the feel of TOS save for the round bridge) The fact that they honor to the letter the things that occurred in Star Trek Discovery yet ignore anything they want from TOS just to make their story work. It’s bending over backwards to legitimize Star Trek Discovery and blowing off some crucial elements of TOS. Just lifting the Spock fight cue isn’t honoring TOS. And even S1 Ep10 had to use the goofy “time crystal” stuff to occur to begin with.
Tell me two elements from Star Trek Discovery that Strange New Worlds has contradicted and I’ll reconsider my statement.
Dude, the average Trek fan is not going to think about any of this and how it supposedly ties to Discovery. Most of that is just contemporary production design today and would still be done if DIS never existed. You mention the uniforms, which is another example of upgrading things, but its still TOS, right?? Show me ONE scene of the DIS uniforms anywhere??? This is the point.
And I’m talking about the actual story elements. THAT’s what people will think about lol. It’s such a weird argument to say the show is trying to follow Discovery when not a single DIS character has appeared on this show yet and all the stories are geared to TOS stories.
I don’t think it’s bending over backwards to ‘legitimize’ Discovery, it simply accepts that show’s canon as it should since all of it is indeed canon. We do agree it is making a mess with some of TOS canon but that’s only because they want to explore some of the characters and species more that goes against canon but yeah we FULLY on this aspect. I have made that very clear here and other places multiple times. Some of it just bother me more than others.
But the funny thing about SNW is that they seem to be actually be ignoring DIS for the most part or we would’ve had the DIS Klingons again in the first episode or had a chance for L’Rell or Tyler to show up, but of course they weren’t even referenced. If you never watched DIS you wouldn’t be confused or lost about anything dealing with SNW. That’s why I don’t buy this argument. DIS isn’t being contradicted, but it isn’t being recognized very much either. But with TOS, you can’t go a single episode without a reference or actual character appearances somewhere from it.
I don’t know how you would have a show with Pike, Una and Spock without it being a prequel.
I actually have no issue with minor canon issues – growing up with TOS, I found that within TOS itself, it never adhered to its own canon. I am completely fine with that.
For the Gorn, I have no issues that they are wild lizards when they are hatched. We have not seen a mature Gorn yet. They have not developed into thinking predators yet. I will be interested to see how they handle that though. And I will have absolutely no issue if it isn’t a guy in a rubber lizard suit in a loin cloth. LOL. Rewatching Arena, it is amazing how laughable the slow moving Gorn was.
I also have no issue with Jim Kirk showing up. I like that they have legacy characters like Uhura, Chapel and M’Benga – being able to flesh out what came before is great for me!
The only (minor) issue I have is why have a Noonian-Singh character. They could have used any other name. It is the only thing I have question since season 1 – but I don’t let it bother me from enjoying the show.
I am not one of those “nitpickers” that HAVE to pick everything apart. TOS is a 60-year-old show that didn’t even adhere to its own canon…even in the TOS movies. So I don’t really spend my time worrying about it. But I do know that there are nitpickers and that is what they enjoy doing. To each their own, right? LLAP
Oh… and we already heard Scotty in season 1. He is on the ship, we just haven’t seen him. I do expect Sulu to show up at some point because I think he was on the ship before Kirk – but as a botanist.
“I don’t know how you would have a show with Pike, Una and Spock without it being a prequel.”
Of course but what I’m saying it didn’t have to feel so blatant either. Perfect example is Kirk. Many fans originally predicted we wouldn’t see him until literally the final episode of the series when he shows up and takes over for Pike. Not only would that be a symbolic moment, it would make clear this show was mostly about Pike’s adventures until the show was done.
Instead Kirk showed up in the first season lol. And now he’s going to play a recurring role throughout and which will probably foreshadow his ultimate command of that ship as we see him become friends with people like Spock, Uhura, Chapel, etc.
That just didn’t need to be there at all IMO. The show should be about Pike with of course some references to TOS and probably become closer to that show as it gets closer. But it’s already feeling like that because of all the characters on it. It would’ve been nice we had a few more characters from the Cage for example, at least one more maybe. But they were all replaced with TOS characters for obvious reasons. As I said there is nothing wrong to have legacy characters, for some it’s just too many too fast, that’s all. And I suspect most people don’t care, I’m only talking about the people who do.
As far as the Gorn, everyone has said it at this point, everyone feels how they feel about it, that’s fine. They still could’ve just made a new species entirely but yes that’s strictly my opinion as well.
And no one is telling you to worry about it lol. Other people are expressing their concerns as they have been about every iteration of Trek for the last 55 years. But If you totally love the show and have no real issues with it, good for you. No one is getting on your case about it.
Oh and Scotty isn’t on the ship yet. The producers confirmed that but I suspect he will also join sooner than later. But I did love his line in that episode lol.
Where’s Lt. Tyler? Where’s Doctor Boyce, Pike’s friend??? These are canon characters. Uhura was in HIGH SCHOOL during this period. Its 13 years before TOS! She’s an ensign? How stupid can they be?
SNW takes place after The Menagerie – It is possible that those crew have either transferred out to another ship, or in Dr. Boyce’s case, retired. SNW happens after the Klingon war – People like Ortegas, M’Benga and Chapel were transferred to the Enterprise afterwards. If you are going to quote source data, at least know what you are talking about.
But then start the show with those characters, and SHOW them leaving the show, to set the stage for the new characters to come in. They’re never mentioned.
Why? They can start the show at any pint they wanted. SNW starts with Pike being on extended leave. The Enterprise has been in dry dock for a while. It seems like a logical place to start. The old crew is gone. The new crew is in place. All is well.
I do know what I’m talking about, because think of this: If this is approximately 13 years before Kirk took command – Lets say 10 years to be fair. In TOS, Uhura is a Lieutenant. So she was probably in her mid to late twenties, give or take. Lets say she was 26 in the first season of TOS. She would be 16 in this series! Not only is canon violated, but the timeframe doesn’t match up. Uhura should be in high school still during this show! She’s not even in the academy yet. These writers are just stupid. Its that simple. They never watched the show or looked into the lore. Its kinda embarrassing.
The problem with your logic is that you are assuming things such as the age and when it took place, and how old was Uhura when she went to the academy. There is nowhere… anywhere… where it mentions how old she is. Maybe she is older than Kirk? Maybe she went into the academy later in her life. Or maybe she is young and highly advanced. How old was Wesley Crusher when he went to the academy?
Yes but the fans also wanted it to respect the source material which they reasonably thought was TOS. Instead they got a show that ignored TOS and honored and respected Star Trek Discovery instead. I very much doubt many fans were wanting that. Oh, and they also wanted it to be good. Both hopes are way more than Secret Hideout can deliver.
I think they saw Pike and was like, Wow, he even looks like Jefferey Hunter! We’re finally gonna get proper Star Trek! And it was Discovery repackaged in a different format. With Pike, I think fans really thought they were completely turning the ship around, and going back to the “Star Trek Bible” and it would feel like TOS and The Cage, with a modernized look. We got the modernized look we got modernized dialogue. We got modernized characters that are written and portrayed NOTHING like what was intended. Its another turd, painted with pink, for girl-power.
What does that even mean? I have absolutely no issue with the characters or how they are portrayed. And how do you know how they were intended to play? A failed pilot from the early ’60s that was rejected by the network for being too cerebral and re-edited for a 2 part episode that was inconsistent with TOS – Spock, for example.
Oh for God sakes, can we all stop pretending that in modern cinema and TV, that men have been emasculated, and are treated like garbage. They are either stupid, effeminate, or evil. Listen to the dialogue carefully, and the interactions between the male and female characters. feminism is being shoved in our faces. Ripley, great character. Sarah Connor, some thing. But they didn’t need to put men down to get respect. ENSIGN Uhura knows more about engineering than experienced Starfleet engineers? Its a girl-power thing. They were men, and she had to show her power. The women treat SPock like he’s retarded. “do you ever speak in plain English? Ha ha ha ha”. You don’t talk to a fellow officer in public on the bridge like that. Its unprofessional and improper. But the men are punching bags. Here’s a physical example: In Peter Pan and Wendy (which should just be called Wendy) Wendy, a 100 lb teenager, is somehow become an expert swordsman, and completely demolish 2 grown men. Really? Its ridiculous. Enough with having women able to beat up men. Realistically, in a fight, 90% of the time, a woman will never beat a man in a fight. Its biology man. Its feminism. If you want to live in denial, fine. As soon as they introduce a white male that is a side character, he’s arrogant or incompetent, and they KILL HIM. Did they do that to Barkley in TNG? No. They worked together to make him better, and he gained friends. THAT is Star Trek. Not “lets make the girls all-powerful, and show hate for straight white males”. Its so obvious.
Wow. What a great speech! I bet you are popular with all the women, speaking that way.
I find nothing wrong or irregular about how the characters are portrayed. If we go by YOUR logic… humanity hasn’t progressed since the early 50s. Star Trek is about everyone being equal. Race, Religion, Gender. THIS is what Roddenberry has envisioned for the future. Why do you think he had different cultures and races on the ship in key roles? Why do you think he wanted No. 1 as a first officer? The network did not like that a woman was in such a position and wanted that cut. So maybe scale back on your misogynistic views and welcome yourself to 2023.
I’m popular with my Trad Wife and my 2 beautiful daughters that God blessed me with.
“And how do you know how they were intended to play?” Because its in the Star Trek Bible, and character sheets from Gene Roddenberry.
There was no bible at that point. It was a pilot episode. There wasn’t even a Star Trek bible during TOS because it was constantly inconsistent. A “Bible” only came in with TNG.
I’ve seen it!
+3.
Yes, YES! Then don’t make a prequel show, or call your show Star Trek.
+100 – if you want to have storytelling beat canon, then do a new universe.
Yeah sorry but again every single new show (again I can’t make any claims about TOS the animated show, as I wasn’t following anything released by the producers are writers, I was simply just watching it). But everything for the TOS films onward have made comments about how this new version is different than the previous. And none of those comments donated a level of quality.
That you take it as meaning something besides just basic PR thats on you.
And again, making any assumption about how producers care about something isn’t something that you can rationally justify period. Your not a telepath.
Now you could say something like I wish the producers cared as much about canon as I do. That is a perfectly valid opinion. Or I wish the producers would treat canon as I would if I was in their shoes. Again perfectly reasonable opinion.
But if the writers making a program feel that its ok to change things, and that their current story is more important then the works done by others and themselves in their own show (and I am talking about the original show here), why should we hold later creators to a different standard? For myself that is utterly irrational.
Now saying all that, you’ll notice not once have I made any judgment about the quality of the various production. The reason is that quality is utterly irrelevant to the point about us, the viewers having any real insight into how producers feel about anything.
We as rational beings can make a point about not liking what someone does, or thinking what we would like to see is better, in a way that doesn’t make judgments about what they care about.
And let’s be very clear here, there are many a dedicated fan of Trek that have various opinions on what is and isn’t canon. What comments and statements mean. Dedicated fans of Trek treat a lot of things as canon that are in fact baed on assumptions and not actual fact. I mean sweet Jesu look at how many people assumed that Spock and T’Pring hadn’t had any contact since the picture we were shown in Amok Time. Yet there is literally no dialogue sporting that belief. None. Look at how many people they know the events of when Kirk meet Pike. And the assumptions that people take as canon about it. What we know is they meet when he Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain. Thats literally it. We don’t even know what Fleet Captain means. The only fact about Fleet Captain that we know as fact is that Pike and Garth have held that rank. We know knowing else about it. We have no idea if they did missions together, if they had had any other contacts, nor do we know if Kirk actually spent time serving under him. We make assumptions but that is all they are.
Making statements that are utterly unknowable by us the viewer is utterly irrational. Let’s be very clear your statement is without merit.
100% without merit — well said!
But making statements that they never cared about canon, is again something you can make with any knowledge whatsoever.
Yeah, it’s lazy trolling like, juvenile behavior.
An opinion is never without merit.
Well, as the dude said, when you have an opinion that’s it’s utterly unknowable by us the viewer and is utterly irrational, it’s without merit.
I hear your point though, so let’s say that when you have an option that’s utterly unknowable by us the viewer is utterly irrational, the opinion does have a theoretically possible chance of having merit, but that chance is too small to measure with any known methods, but we hope that future advances will allow for measurement.
“Big Swings” doesn’t mean they are taking risks with storytelling. It means they are taking big swings at canon.
I’m watching Space:1999 and the Six Million Dollar Man on Peacock. This morning I watched the craziest Sci-fi film I have seen so far. It shouldn’t work but it does. I’m talking about “The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension.”
These shows and films are bizarre, crazy, other worldly, and nuts. Absolutely Bananas. But, they are exciting, experimental, and have stories that push the imagination.
I want that craziness for SNW. Go nuts! Have Commodore April send them to a sector of space and come up with wild and crazy science fiction stuff that just boggles our mind. No one cares about Spock and Chapel. No one cares about emo Spock. We have so much going on in our world, translate that to SNW.
Just my crazy two cents. If you love the show the way it is, cool. It’s just my opinion.
I was watching Robert Meyer Burnett video this morning who has seen the first six episodes of this season and he makes a similar point. He has not been a fan of SNW for multiple reasons but he did make a great point why he has such a problem with the show and that’s it’s too focused filling in TOS characters and storylines and not really about coming up with new ideas and concepts on their own. It’s talking about Star Trek but not really being about Star Trek. It’s focused on Spock and T’Pring, Pike’s fate, how Kirk and Spock will meet (which he thinks is a mistake to even have on the show and I agree), how La’An ancestry ties into Khan (also thinks is a mistake to have another Noonien Sigh), Uhura’s accepting her role as communications officer, but ironically the exploring strange new worlds part has mostly taken a back seat.
He even gave away a few minor spoilers (which I will not repeat here) and that the next few episodes wallow on past TOS stories and characters but the show doesn’t attempt to do anything unique or innovative at all. That’s why he didn’t like the first season, the stories did absolutely nothing new, just relied on a lot of familiar Star Trek tropes and TOS story lines. For me, I really enjoyed season one, but I can’t disagree with that either.
And he says this as a hardcore TOS fan whose been watching Trek since 1972. I have really liked SNW but yeah I want it to live up to its supposed premise and give us weird trippy Star Trek again and a deep dive into exploration. They did that a little in first season but the same time is playing it very very safe and relying way too much filling in on TOS backstories and a lot of times against canon at that as the Gorn, Spock and Chapel are proving.
It’s not just SNW. It’s pretty much all of NuTrek — even the sainted season 3 of PIcard, which at least did it well, unlike the rest. Only season one of Picard felt like it was exploring new ground.
I don’t disagree with this too much and to make this clear with RMB, he feels this is the issue with all of the new shows as well. He seems to give season 3 of Picard a pass because it’s wrapping up this specific crews story and he liked the theme of them aging and being in a different place of their lives now which I agree with. It wasn’t just another TNG story, the characters have all moved into different places and was a big part of the story. The Riker we got in this season is a million light years from the Riker we got on the show but still inherently that character. But yes, it was tons of nostalgia bait on a grand level lol.
As far as SNW, as I said, I really love the show so far, certainly more than him lol. BUT I was also hoping in season 2, they will start to make the show it’s own thing once they established all the TOS characters and story lines but it sounds like the opposite and it’s going to be more about that stuff and sadly less about exploring strange new worlds.
And this is the other problem when you have only 10 episodes. If they had 26 episodes like the old days, they could’ve done all of that but still had tons of episodes left to just explore and do other things. But with only 10 you have so much you can do.
I think your last paragraph here sums up the biggest issue that streaming shows have in general and episodic streaming shows have in particular. 10 episodes is definitely not enough for anything so I feel like this is the reason why the producers are impatient with building up the show to have its own identity because they actually don’t have the time. Like you said if they had at least 20 episodes maybe we might have seen more “Star Trekking” going on.
Yeah I agree. I accepted that this is the new normal and I would be fine with it if the shows didn’t feel the need to produce so much nostalgia bait on one hand but the same time trying to do something new. It’s obviously easier said than done.
This is also why Prodigy is currently my favorite new Trek show because it seems to have balanced those two ideas the best in terms of using nostalgia and fan service but also does an amazing job of focusing on all its new characters while NOT relying on old villains to push its story either like the Gorn, Borg, Pakleds, Klingons, etc, etc. In fact Prodigy is the first NuTrek show to give us an entire new species as both a driver of the show and also its villain. The show that’s made for 8 year old kids. So while there is definite fan service, it doesn’t rely on it in the way all the other shows are doing it.
But also take note Prodigy has 20 episodes a season too, so that drives home the point even more. ;)
Prodigy having 20 episode seasons is a misnomer. Their 20 episodes came out in 2 groups of 10 about a year apart. This is very similar to other shows having 2 ten episode seasons that come out a year apart. They are essentially the same in all but name.
It’s not. They are making 20 episodes a season and each season has its own story arc. You’re complaining how they are being distributed, which the show runners can’t control.But each season is in fact 20 episodes and why there are currently 20 episodes labelled as season one on Paramount+ and not a two seasons with ten each. In five years time, that’s all people will know anyway when its all complete and listed as such.
Hopefully season 2 won’t be so spread out. And the producers admitted part of the reason there were so many breaks with season one is because they simply got behind making them.
That would be good but still… Regardless of the story continuing through episode 20 that doesn’t necessarily make it one season. There was sufficient time between episode 10 to episode eleven that it may as well just been season 2. BSG did that. They had a mid season break that was so very long I just couldn’t consider the next set of episodes the same season.
Yes they could’ve said that, but it’s one season regardless. Again, why it’s listed as season one on Paramount+ now that it’s finished. If you turn on the show TODAY for the first time on P+, that’s all you know. Yes, the original distribution of it was weird, but from this point on to the next 50 years people will only view it as one season now. Hardly anyone is going to even remember how it was distributed a year from now.
It is but it’s just weird and inconsistent.
OK fair enough.
You know, I’ve been thinking this in my mind for a while now, but I guess it has to do with money. But I don’t like this 8 episode/10 episodes a season crap. Its like getting ripped off. Its a mini-series, not a full series. I’m not saying they have to do 26 episodes, but maybe a compromise. how about 16 or 18 episodes. it provides more variety, and more chances to see what works and what doesn’t (not that they care), but I miss those 26 episode days!
Here too. I know I sound like an old man when I say this but I remember mini-series’ that ran every weeknight and perhaps on a Sunday, too. Roots totaled 9 hours & 46 minutes not counting commercials over 8 nights. Shogun ran for 9 hrs & 44 minutes over 5 nights. North & South ran for 9 hrs & 20 minutes. Those would be full seasons of a show today. That is why I call all these short season shows of today “mini series”. They are. My favorite TV movie of all time, Lonesome Dove, came in short at 6 hrs & 12 minutes over 4 nights could still be an 8 episode “season” today, as some shows are indeed only that long.
So yes. I agree. A full season needs to be at least around 16-20+ episodes to count as one full season. That gives plenty of time for shows to play around and try things they may not have time to do in short seasons.
Again you are comparing network shows and that’s the misnomer. Cable shows have been around 12 or 13 episode seasons as far back as the 90s. They never really made 20+ episodes a season and the few times they did was rare, but never the standard either. Streaming has even less than that now although they used to follow the cable model.
Network shows still make 20 episodes. Law and Order still make that many today. But yes it is more accepted to make around 13 episodes even on networks but it’s not a mandate the way it appears to be in streaming.
Because when they were producing 26 episodes at the time, it made since given how TV was produced back then. In a TNG documentary, one of the earlier executives when the show was being made was that the show HAD to be 26 episodes a season or they wouldn’t make the show at all because that’s how the economics worked out back then with syndication.
Today, that’s all basically non-existent now. That’s actually the irony, back then it made sense to make more episodes. Unfortunately how things are done today it now makes sense to make less as we are seeing with everything. Now 8-10 episode seasons is a better model, especially for streaming.
That said, I agree I miss having more episodes too and I NEVER complained about have 20+ episodes. But that is the other irony, I remember fans saying that Star Trek needs to be closer to the cable model and make around 12 episodes a year. It was just too many episodes. I didn’t really agree with that then and especially not now. But I accept this is the new normal as well.
Oh, he also said something very peculiar about the season 3 episode. Again, I don’t want to say too much because I feel like it’s a bit spoilerish. He did this a lot with season 3 of Picard as well. He said things that wasn’t an out and out spoiler but now after seeing the season, quite a few things were basically spoilers lol.
But he essentially says something happens in that episode that convinces him that DIS and SNW are in a separate timeline. I personally think it’s just something that he interpreted but he seems to be claiming the show itself is making clear. Obviously IDK, but this is intriguing either way.
This is why RMB has been blocked by Paramount. He actually right abut everything, and they don’t want to hear the truth. But just from some of the things he said about what we might see in the first 6 episodes, I just hung my head and did a facepalm. I was really hoping they’d learn some lessons, and get better this season. Sounds like they intend on destroying Trek. Since they allow comments on their own articles here, maybe they should READ THEM and find out what fans want, and what they’re doing wrong. We’re right here! Free advice Goldsman. But they’re too arrogant and narcissistic to listen to us plebes.
“No one cares about Spock and Chapel”?
I care. There are people that care. There are people that like what the show is delivering story wise. You don’t? That’s fine. You want to express that opinion? You have the right, that’s what these boards are for. But don’t try to pretend that “everyone” shares your view just to add weight to your argument.
I put “my opinion” for a reason. Some people like Akiva’s interpretation and that’s cool. I honestly prefer something with more substance and less juvenile.
Yet,
KevinB
September 25, 2022 11:11 am
My favorite moment was when bad Rutherford did the Vulcan mind meld on good Rutherford and uttered, “remember.”
So much for wanting less juvenile Trek. Whoops! :-)) LOL
I care. There are people that care. There are people that like what the show is delivering story wise. You don’t? That’s fine. You want to express that opinion? You have the right, that’s what these boards are for. But don’t try to pretend that “everyone” shares your view just to add weight to your argument.
The truth is that this show is a mega hit, and that most fans are really enjoying it. What is hilarious here to me is that many of the people whining and moaning are the same people who love that juvenile sitcom insult to Trek show…give me a break!
I hereby give you a break. Please use it to be absent from this site for as long as you see fit, but preferably for a minimum of a year.
You know, I was like 80% sure that my opinion on this was on the right track, but your petty, near-personal attack quips today have provided the validation I need to bump this confidence figure in my opinion here to to 90% now. THANKS!
I agree. Its a ship of High schoolers and I don’t want to see a SPock romance. I just don’t. Lets get these guys OUT THERE, and explore some science! you know, STRANGE NEW WORLDS? Thats the name of the show, so where are the strange new worlds? What a bunch of idiots. There’s so much wrong.
I’m with you! Go nuts! As long as canon is honored, lets get CREATIVE. There’s a word we haven’t heard in a while. I want to see exotic planets, strange cultures with ethics we might not agree with. SCIENCE. I wanna see science. I don’t care about feelings. I want to watch professionals who are the best of the best, and work together without putting each other down, to solve problems. I like weird. Weird is good. Show me something we haven’t seen before!
The thing is there is nothing different about SNW so far, in my opinion. If feels like we have pretty much seen it all before (and seen it done better).
Strange new worlds wouldn’t really have been possible if it didn’t deviate from canon, no prequel show around that era would be. It would be too restricted. I always have hoped for a prequel show around the earth romulan war at least that is relatively unknown to main stream canon. This is why I think modern day trek should be a continuation rather than a prequel
Exactly! Sequels seem to work better in Star Trek when it comes to canon. SNW is the third prequel so far and it’s facing the exact same problems of the other two when it comes to this issue. Going forward instead of backwards seems to work so much better for a reason.
BETTER CALL SAUL, which is one of the very few prequels not merely to work, but to surpass the original, was eminently respectful of BREAKING BAD canon.
Goldsman is plumb wrong.
Yep, BCS is the true exception, which ironically I gave an example about in the LAST SNW article dealing with canon lol. It respected BB canon in such a beautiful way. And I wasn’t originally sold on that idea either but I was completely onboard by the end of it.
Now I’ll be a little fair about it, it’s probably easier to do a prequel when you are only talking about one show it’s following that produced less than 100 episodes. With Star Trek, there are literally hundreds of episodes and stretched into multiple centuries of story telling now. That’s already hard to reconcile and probably a reason why maybe you shouldn’t make prequels if you acknowledge there is so much past content to contend with.
BCS was a rare instance of a prequel done perfectly. A masterpiece, actually. Good call.
I was never convinced of the whole prequel concept(in any series or movie) until I watched BCS. It was perfection.
That is supposed to be the Danger of doing a Prequel , You are already dealing with a story with a future. The point is to tell a New story to intersect with that future … As some have already said , To many TOS characters way too soon , And rewriting their stories is Not efficient to Capt. Pike Stories …………. A prequel should be ALL about Capt. Pikes Adventures ……….. Not TOS Characters adventures …….
He is annoying and disrespectful of the world that has been built by other artists before him. A world that fans value. A world that fans pay attention to. A least Paramount+ should get a PR person to work with him on these statements that earn absolutely zero love from the fan base. His talking doesn’t promote the show because to non-fans he is an interchangeable light bulb producer. It could be anyone saying things in these interviews. But to fans, he is almost earning ill will with his statements that say his storytelling beats the canon (which is just the previous story telling by other artists). It says “my story is better than the story that was already told.” Since the definition of fan is someone who loves the story that was already told, how is having him speak helpful in any way marketing things? He’s like an amateur politician who didn’t know how to not make a gaffe statement. His talent as a promotion tool is very little.
Everyone treats Spock like he was born yesterday, like he’s retarded. Uhura, who is an Ensign, somehow thinks she is smarter and more experienced than Starfleet Engineers, who are actually IMPROVING her station for her. Oh, that’s right, we have to put down men whenever we can. “Big swings” is code for ‘we’re gonna destroy canon even worse this year’. Pike is portrayed nothing like Roddenberry envisioned: Austere, private, and kept his crew at arms length. Now he’s hosting brunch every morning? Ugh. He’s not your big brother. He’s the Commanding Officer of a Federation Starship! Are you kidding me? I could go on and on. There’s so much wrong. I’d fire Goldsman and the entire writers rom and bring in Terry Matalas tomorrow to fix this mess.
What a disappointing comment by Goldman’s about the Gorn. He truly missed the entire point of Arena, which was they even though the Gorn is a terrible lizard creature who committed a massacre, Kirk and the crew (in parallel fashion) do find a way to empathize with the Gorn and their motives despite their diffrences.
Literally that’s the entire moral of the story. The Gorn are NOT mindless monsters.
If they were mindless monsters they very likely wouldn’t even be spacefaring creatures.
Arena is often remembered for its silly by today’s standards fight scenes but the moral of the episode is core to Star Trek’s ethos. So disappointing that the Gorn are reimagined without that nuance.
But what appears to be missing from many’s comments is that it took an outside force, to get to the moral of that story. Arena was never about humanity’s ability to natural see the human side of the enemy. It took an outside force, to make that possible.
I disagree with your assessment. It was Kirk’s decision not to kill the Gorn that was the moral of the story. The Metrons were surprised that the human defied their expectations and came to empathize with the supposed monster.
Again you missed the point. It’s the direct actions of the Metrons that put Kirk and Gorn in a situation that allowed the growth of Kirk to occur. I never made any comment that the Metrons forced the growth on Kirk, but it was the Metrons direct actions that put Kirk in an environment that allowed his growth.
Again compare that to Balance of Terror. Gorn attack Colony without warning kill everyone. Romulan attack destroys several outposts killing everyone. Yet Kirk makes growth without any outside influence in Balance of Terror. In Arena is it possible Kirk would have in a ship combat situations also made that growth? We don’t and will never know. But in the episode in question it’s the direct influence of another species stripping down the technology and physical barriers between two beings that put Kirk in a position to make growth. Also consider the different between the ROmulan Commander and the Gorn Commander. On the surface it would seem that the Romulan commander had a far grater understanding of humans (again a race they never really had direct in person contact with) then what we ever hear from the Gorn Commander.
The producers can absolutely treat the Gorn in a manner that isn’t willing to show that they have any empathy with humanity. Because that was how they are still portrayed in Arena. Now the only possible growth from the Gorn in Arena is his promise of a quick death (its possible that the race on a one to one would prefer to slowly torture a being until it dies, so that would be some growth).
And while tis a tiny needle to thread. The ship in Arena just needs to be a different class than any previous version of the Gorn. We need Kirk not to have visible contact with the race previously, and technically you don’t break canon. You bend the hell out of it, but break it no.
Now do I wish the Gorn were used here, and perhaps to a larger degree later in the season. That might very well be a no. But I will of course be rational and have to watch to form any legitimate opinions on the matter.
The only way that the Gorn could have worked on SNW was that in Arena the ship is radically different including power signatures and whatnot. No one should have seen them. And most importantly, the word “Gorn” should never had been used.
This is all assuming that when Star Fleet goes looking for the Gorn they never find them and the Gorn immediately retreat never to be heard from again until the events of Arena.
That’s the point. Kirk learned a lesson thanks to the Metrons. Spock was second-guessing Kirk’s decision to pursue and destroy the Gorn ship the entire time, again speaking as the moral center/ethos of Star Trek.
Precisely.
Time to trot out Kirk (via Meyer) to refute and dismiss Goldsman from here on in: Like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target!
Though I guess it would be more accurate to say he wasn’t even aware there was a target.
Not only does Goldsman miss not only the entire point of Arena, but the entire ethos of Star Trek… he acts as if this “story-telling” he and the others came up with is some Emmy-worthy masterpiece of writing, when it really, really isn’t. In fact, the writing of all of these Trek shows is the thing that’s criticised the most.
The funny thing is, even I can think of a way to fix this whole mess in the long run.
Why not have it be that this species we are seeing in SNW is a group that splintered off from the Gorn (like the Romulans and Vulcans)? They have been in a long cold war with each other this whole time. Have the SNW Gorn’s goal be to isolate the TOS Gorns from the rest of the galaxy. Eventually, the crew learns that these aren’t the only species of Gorn in the galaxy but they never actually meet this other species.
This explains why the TOS crew had never seen that kind of Gorn and why their ships were different. It also could explain why the TOS Gorn were so hostile to the humans, they had only ever had dealings with the SNW Gorn up to that point.
IDK if any of that would work but at least it tries to work within the bounds of established canon
Well, yes; if they pull that kind of rabbit out of the hat, I’d be happy to re-think it. Do we really think that’s likely?
They would have to be called something besides “Gorn” for that fix to work.
You expect Akiva / Team Kurtzman to understand Star Trek? The people that brought us the failed Dark Universe or Batman & Robin? lol good luck!
It seems very much that Strange New Worlds honors as their source material not TOS but Star Trek Discovery. This is obvious to anyone who has seen all three.
Next, I get and actually agree that canon should not get in the way of story. But in this case canon DOESN’T get in the way of the story they want to tell. All they need to do is make up some new non humanoid alien species to do what they are doing. Or at the very least find some non humanoid alien species that hasn’t really been fleshed out at all that doesn’t have a first encounter story already baked in. Someone mentioned the Kzinti some time ago, for example. There just is no reason to use the Gorn. This isn’t a “We need someone to recognize Kahn but the best person in this story to do that is Chekov” kind of thing. This is something that was EASILLY avoidable without compromising anything about your story. And that is why everything this charlatan says rings hollow.
Totally agree. If they had just called them the “Schmorn” there would have been no problem.
Yeah just make a new species and go to town with it. I have never been personally infatuated with the Gorn in the first place so I would’ve been up for anything new. Or just use a species we know very little about like the Kzinti, Breen or even the Cardassians in this period. All of these species are major A-holes and the Federation will not get into a war with Cardassians not once, but twice. So you have an opportunity to build up to that.
But OK, they love the Gorn and really want to develop them and I get that. But you can’t do that the way they want to on THIS show. If you had them on Picard for example, then they have room to do pretty much anything they wanted with them. Or even on Discovery. I think it would’ve been great to see a Gorn war in the 32nd century for example and see how developed they became in the last thousand years. But in the 23rd century it makes absolutely no sense. None.
During the entire run of TNG was really hoping we might at least get a line or two about what ever happened with the UFP & the Gorn. But if you want to play with the Gorn then the place to do that is ANY show set in a time AFTER TOS. TNG. Picard. Even Star Trek Discovery. It feels like if Meyers was really loving the Horta they would just throw in a Horta story because “the Horta are cool”. Well, when doing a prequel you don’t get to do that.
They should just grow a pair and admit that everything Secret Hideout has made is NOT prime. It’s all reboot. That would create less problems for them.
Y’know, I just started rewatching TAS a couple nights back, the first three eps, and right off the bat with Peeples’ BEYOND THE FARTHEST STAR, I was taken aback by how crisp and intelligent the dialog was, which even though I enjoyed the show through many viewings down through the years, I don’t recall as registering so strongly with me. Maybe it is because I find 21st century Trek dialog so stunningly inane by comparison that this TAS stuff sounds so good?
Also, gotta say it: if you take alien baddie dialog from FARTHEST STAR and couple it with center of the galaxy looniness from MAGICKS OF MEGUS-TWO, you’ve got an AWFUL lot of TFF already done. ONE OF OUR PLANETS IS MISSING has got a lot that goes into TMP, too.
I’m going to pay serious attention to the dialog all the way through this time, assuming I get through them all. Have a feeling that maybe the current folks could stand to learn some stuff from these.
a lot of TAS was written /edited by the same staff. Discounting the production quality of the visuals, the stories are still in line overall very much w/ TOS
Disappointing.
Because for me, storytelling beats canon.
And the marketing of iconic things beats storytelling in today’s IP Hollywood. That’s the crux of why they make the decision to use the Gorn again and again. It’s iconic. Just like Klingons, Khan, Borg, etc. Doesn’t matter if it doesn’t make story or canonical sense. If it’s something that reaches beyond the confines of the fictional universe, if it can be a joke on SNL or Futurama, if it can be a bobblehead or a T-shirt, if it can be a meme, then it’s going to be used. It’s a marketable, algorithmic decision. That’s it.
Goldsman could just as well have created a NEW Cthulhu-like race to war with our heroes, but it doesn’t fit the business model.
“Because for me, storytelling beats canon. And that may not be popular, but it’s the truth.”
Umm… how exactly would the story-telling be impacted if they introduced a new species and have them behave like the Gorn in the show?
Every time Goldsman opens his mouth I roll my eyes.
That’s the thing. Neither he nor Meyers explained why their story was dependent on using the Gorn vs some other newly made up baddies. I promise you, if there was no way at all they could do their story without using the Gorn, and the story was a good one, I would back off ripping on their Gorn use. Neither has happened.
Trek deserves so much better than all this. I’ve defended Disney Star Wars for years against criticism because I feel like the quality is mostly very high and the respect for the franchise is there, but I just can’t do the same with CBS Trek, the majority is just so, so poor. Who does Goldsman and co think they are, claiming slapping “Gorn” on a bunch of aliens = good story-telling. It’s a small thing in the grand scheme of things but it points to a fundamental disrespect the majority of the current Trek creators have for the franchise.
That quote of his. Such an utterly stupid thing to say.
As someone who generally likes NuTrek and feel they are getting things more right than wrong lately, the Gorn thing is definitely on the wrong track.
And I have never been a huge Gorn fan either. I wasn’t really that bothered they were breaking canon with them in season one but I acknowledged they were just the same. Now it sounds like they are going to a level even I think is eye rolling. If you don’t want to play in the sandbox where people have already created something. You don’t knock it down, you just move to a different sandbox and create something new on your own. I really wish they just did that.
I agree. Overall I feel like Disney has treated Star Wars WAY better than Secret Hideout had treated Trek. Say what you will about the quality of the shows but at least it gives you the feeling that they are trying to keep a consistent universe no matter what time frame the show or feature is set in. There is none of that in nu-Trek.
Yes true. They said the Gorn were cool, but actually it’s the monsters themselves and their behavior that they find cool (to each his own), that doesn’t mean they had to make them Gorn.
To me it’s pretty clear; they made those creatures Gorn because they wanted to capitalize on the popularity of the species with the fanbase. In other words, whatever it takes to bring the viewers in. Yet another marketing ploy made without regard to anything except revenues. To make it worse, they take us for morons by explaining it away in ways that make no sense thinking we’re going to swallow it, and that there is my beef with this.
right. The only people would care that they used Gorn are the same people that will be “wait a tick….” – it’s a no-win scenario
the missed that “seek out new life forms” thing…just recycling old ones, and poorly at that
None of what Goldsman said was surprising. And to an extent I agree, storytelling should come first, to an extent. It does make me worry that there is something to the quote that we know Una will be okay because she was in The Cage. If they mess with the timeline of that it will be much worse than the Gorn thing.
The idea that storytelling has to trump canon is fine, but it has to be one hell of a story to justify it. I’m not totally beat up about making the Gorn such monsters, but it doesn’t feel necessary to me.
Enterprise introduced the Xindi and after a little grumbling about them never showing up again, we accepted them for what they were and some good material came out of it. Had they been Klingons, Cardassians, or Romulans the canon distractions would have outweighed any benefits. If they’d been Gorn… I dunno, actually.
Exactly! And while I have never loved the Xindi (but definitely like them, just not my favorite), it’s a far far better idea to make a new species and you can do whatever you want with them. I remember when they were announced and people were saying ‘this makes no sense because we never heard of them or this incident before’. But imagine over writing a known species with a similar story line and fans would’ve been more upset. That’s exactly how the Gorn are feeling right now.
And I never understood this bizarre idea that you can’t introduce a major new species in a prequel just because they didn’t get a reference in TOS or TNG. Fortunately fans seem OK with doing that today. But if you feel you literally can’t introduce a big new species and do big things with them, it’s another reason why they should just avoid doing prequels altogether then.
Yeah, it’s a big galaxy. We didn’t see a Tellarite or a Tholian or a Gorn again for all of the 90s!
Well it looks like 2nd season syndrome has kicked in, for me atleast. There have been so many series over the last 10 years that drew me in with a great season 1 and becomes so poor in comparison in the 2nd. Very disappointing, but I guess not surprising.
How do we get to this conclusion on the strength of just one or two episodes, some trailers, and an interview which doesn’t affect our individual takes on the stories to come?
There is also the takes of people who previewed the first six episodes. Which from what I can tell while there are a couple of moments that stand out the overall feeling is the show has nothing to do with the Trek that comes after their timeline.
Oh, well that settles it, it must be a terrible season, then.
No need to get snarky. You asked how a conclusion was reached and I gave you a possible reason. I don’t buy what a lot of them say myself. I suspect the season will be garbage based on the first season. I’d like to be wrong but I’d wager money I’m not. Anyway… That could be why.
Hey Einstein, do a simple web search for “SNW Season 2 reviews” and see what the general consensus is on the search results.
Here’s a hint: you opinion doesn’t get validated
Hey Young Einstein, I have already seen a number of them. It validates my comment.
Regarding my personal opinion, it has already been validated by the 11 episodes we have.
You are incompetent doing a basic Google search then. Any one who does that “Strange New Worlds Season 2 Reviews” search will get back the same results on the first page of the search where the vast majority of the major sites (e.g. Rolling Stone, etc.) that reviewed the first six eps season given very positive to glowing reviews of S2. This is a fact, non an opinion. Anyone here can do this Google search and get these results.
If you claim otherwise, then you are just wishful thinking BS’ing because you don’t like the lack of validation of your opinion.
Sorry Charlie. I’ve seen and read a handful of reviews. If you found otherwise then you intentionally filtered out the mixed & bad ones. This response is like what Secret Hideout is doing saying their shows are all in line with the Prime Universe when the fact is what we see it is not. What you need to do, and I suspect you won’t, is allow yourself to take in points of view you may not necessarily like. I know. It’s difficult for some. But try.
My last post was 100% factually correct. BS all you want though.
You can choose to selectively believe what you like. What I have said is 100% factual. No matter how much you wish it wasn’t.
It flies in the face of professional critics’ published reviews which put it on par with season 1. Everyone is free to find their own take as it’s subjective, but this feels like some pretty narrow and selective reasoning to come to that conclusion.
It flies in the face of professional critics’ published reviews which put it on par with season 1. Everyone is free to find their own take as it’s subjective, but this feels like some pretty narrow and selective reasoning to come to that conclusion.
Exactly. ML31 is free to have whatever opinion he wants on this, but any of us can do the same Google search for “Strange New Worlds Season 2 Reviews” and get the same overwhelming positive reviews to show up. That is a fact and is non-debatable.
ML31 can BS and have all the smart comebacks that he wants to do on this, but he can’t change reality…LOL
You are free to issue whatever opinion you like. But to only seek out reviews you like doesn’t make that viewpoint an absolute. That’s not how reality works. All the chirping in online threads won’t change that. But if it helps you sleep at night then by all means… Knock yourself out.
LMFAO
What flies in the face of professional reviews? The reviews by those I have been provided advance viewings? Why are those not relevant to you?
The professional reviews put this on par with season 1 (Metacritic: 88 vs 76, Rotten Tomatoes: 98% vs 99%) so the “2nd season syndrome” being discussed here strikes me as a hot take. I don’t know the people you are talking about, if they overlap or not.
It’s all a moot point as we’re just pitting the validity of other people’s critiques against one another rather than our own. I just think it’s silly to form an opinion of a whole season so confidently without having actually seen more than a couple episodes.
Dude, he doesn’t want to hear it — he’s living in his pretend world where facts regarding the consensus of major reviews so far on season 2 (on the first six episodes) don’t matter If they don’t validate his personal opinion on this topic.
You see, when he does a Google web search on “Strange New Worlds Season 2 Reviews”, he gets a completely different result than all the rest of us on this planet. Who knew? Lol
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I had to look that up — that’s awesome!
Look… All I did was offer a potential reason why Boring One said what he said. Then certain individuals weirdly got a burr up their butt because of it.
Regarding your 2nd paragraph, sure. It’s just that among the reviews I have seen they all claim to have previewed the first 6 episodes. That’s more than a “couple” but not the whole. There are also other trends one can legitimately use to form theories. But yes. Technically you don’t know for sure until you’ve sampled the entire product. Regardless of what other, ignorant folks want to complain about.
All righty!
Y’all are exhausting. Always mad about characters that had next to no development getting actually developed (not talking about Spock, Spock had a lot of development. I’m talking about Pike and Uhura and Chapel, etc.) Always carrying on about species getting more development. Since when is anything getting more development a bad thing? It’s exhausting!
Where I come from, being a disabled 90s kid with dissociative identity disorder and an active imagination, Trek developing things like this is amazing because otherwise I’d just have to do it all myself. Do I like the way things are getting developed? With the Gorn, no no not really, they make me feel queasy. I don’t really like it but there’s nothing I can do about it so I just keep my head down and ignore it.
I just like that things and characters are getting developed in general and I want to see that trend continue in other places. Like in the entire Gamma Quadrant. Not in the same way as they did here with the Gorn but in general. It won’t match up to what my system has developed for characters and places but that’s a given. What we have developed ourselves is not canon and never will be. That’s something we always have to remember.
The Gorn aren’t getting ‘more development’, they’re being re-written as something completely different. Not just in appearance, but in actions and context.
You can’t just say “any development = good”, life doesn’t work like that.
Did you see where I said that I didn’t like it. I’m not an idiot, I know it doesn’t work like that. Things will get developed in ways that I don’t like and in ways that are terrible. I know this super well.
Also no that’s still development. Nobody may like it but it is. What we knew about Gorn before was very little. It’s not a damn crime to expand their lore. Once again, I don’t like it but it is what it is. It could just simply be making them more like crocodiles. Maybe they chill out with age. So many ways to work this out.
Not only that but just the fact that Pike & Co know about them means Star Fleet knows about them. Which would mean they would be keeping tabs on them. Which means they would have at the very least a general idea of what space they claim as theirs. Which means they would realize there was at least a chance that Cestus III was in Gorn space. Which means it unlikely they would construct any kind of base there. Which means the events of Arena would have never happened. It completely undermines events that happened on TOS just a few years down the line. If they were the fans they say they are they would know this and NOT used them.
I’ve said before but it’s worth saying again. Manny Coto, who was the show runner for Enterprise’s 4th season, really liked the Gorn and would have loved to get the Gorn on Enterprise. But, unlike these Secret Hideout clowns, he knew he couldn’t due to what happened in Arena. His solution was to use a Gorn in his MU episodes. He get’s he Gorn and doesn’t break canon. That is what a good showrunner does.
Yes, this is the problem now. You can’t be shocked many years later that the Gorn has taken over Cestus III when you just A. acknowledged not only who they are but also aware they expanding deeper into space and B. YOU ARE KEEPING TRACK OF THEM!
It’s like being suddenly surprised the Russians are now trying to take over Ukraine when we have known they been being trying to invade in their area for years now and have in fact taken over parts of the country before that.
Enterprise S3 and S4 under Coto was some of the worst Star Trek ever. That’s like saying that, “well, we know your Trek seasons were some of the worst ever, but hey, we forgive you due to our recognition of your tremendous achievement for getting the canon right on that minor species that appeared in one ep over 30 years ago”…lol
It wasn’t. Your distinction belongs to everything made by Secret Hideout. Your analogy is dead wrong.
The only thing I agree with out on is Lower Decks but for different reasons I think. Feel free to talk about that to me but otherwise I would thank you to not respond to my posts any longer. It feels like you are just doing it to be ornery at this point.
Dude, I get that you got your pride hurt because a couple of us here called you on your made up total BS that insists that we are wrong in stating that the consensus of the main media sites if that SNW S2 is a good one (which can be factually verified by any person doing a Google Search on “Strange New Worlds Season 2 Reviews),” but, man, to whine that I’m being mean to you? I thought you had “a bigger set” than that and could take it from others like you yourself here dish it out to so many all the time?
I am disappointed in you. Frankly, I expected more backbone. :-(
Once again what you “get” is 100% wrong. I’m not whining that you are “being mean” to me. I don’t know you from Adam and I don’t give a crap what you think. I’m just here as a fan and for the sh!ts & giggles. Also, you aren’t. But it very much seems it is I who you let get under your skin the way you constantly respond and bring me up in other posts. Get over it, Chief. Don’t let these things affect you. Let it go. You’ll feel better.
LOL, righhhht! ;-)
Well… Can’t say I didn’t try to help.
I’m moving on. You are compelled to have the last say so knock yourself out. After I finish this scan I’m done with this article so I won’t see it.
“Y’all are exhausting.”
This…really should be pinned to the top of just about every comment section here.
“I was looking for something that was just monstrous, that was Cthulhu-like. Something that was unthinking.”
…which is nothing like the Gorn.
And after this statement I think the interviewer needed to ask “Then why didn’t you consider creating an original species?”
I think the answer to that was essentially they thought the Gorn were cool. The real answer probably is they were too lazy to think of one.
I don’t think they are lazy. I think it’s far worse. They just aren’t detailed (*cough* nerdy) enough to actually know the lore of the series they are running. They desperately need somebody on the staff with the nerd power and authority to raise their hand and literally say “well…actually”
It’s possible there is but if so they have been actively ignoring that person if there.
To be an Oscar-winning writer, it’s somewhat shocking that Akiva Goldsman doesn’t understand the theme of TOS’s “Arena.”
That episode was written by Gene Coon, and it shares a similar theme with “The Devil in the Dark,” which Coon also wrote. Part of the twist of “Arena” is realizing the whole mess is a misunderstanding. The Gorn aren’t “unthinking.” They are not monsters, savages, animals or facehuggers on LV-426. They’re people defending their home. Just like the Horta, maybe before she started dissolving miners the Gorn could have tried communicating with the colonists. But the entire episode is about a future humanity being able to have empathy for something alien and recognizing that maybe the entire situation is a giant mistake.
SNW’s approach so far totally undercuts that. They basically present the Gorn as dangerous savages that are parasites who can’t be reasoned with. They totally miss the point of “Arena.”
There are people on this website that miss that point too. Everything being assigned evil forever and ever is boring and shitty. All of the complaints about this is exhausting too. This story they’re making ain’t over yet. There is time for things to change to become what you see in Arena. That’s something I always keep in mind when I’m watching a show or movie. It’s not over yet.
How is it going to change and become what we see in “Arena” when the producer/writer of the show doesn’t understand it and says his intent is the exact opposite of what TOS was trying to convey?
I don’t know, I don’t write for SNW or Trek at all. You’ll just have to wait and see like the rest of us.
Also if that’s how you read his statements then that’s a you problem. I don’t read them that way.
I didn’t get that from what he said.
If you didn’t get that from this interview, maybe you should work on your reading comprehension.
The entire point of “Arena” is humanity finding a way to have empathy for giant alien lizards. And Goldman says he wanted the Gorn to be something Cthulhu-alien that couldn’t be empathized with. And they have La’an spell that out in an episode, where she says the Gorn can’t be empathized with and are monsters.
That’s the exact opposite intent of what Coon was saying in “Arena.”
Not at all. You need to go back and watch Arena again. At no point do we learn that the Gorn learned the lesson of empathy from the 3rd party alien lecture that the Enterprise crew did — there is not one scene or one line of dialog that shows that the Gorn learned the empathy lesson that the Enterprise crew did.
So, sure, it’s great that the Enterprise crew got some empathy and thought that maybe the situation would not have happenned if they had behaved differently — BUT NONE OF THAT SHOWED THAT THE GORNS HAD SIMILAR EMPATHY OR THAT THEIR NATURE WAS ANY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THAT RELENTLESS KILLER GORN DID ON THE PLANET AGAINST KIRK.
So not one scene or one line covered whether the Gorn’s earned that empathy from the Federation POV. So, there is absolutely no canon reason why the Gorn’s in other encounters with Starfleet — like on SNW — that they can’t be the relentless, non-empathetic, ruthless killers like the one who we saw in Arena who relentless hunted Kirk and had zero interest in intelligent communication with him.
And Coon’s general point still stands — the Federation does need to show empathy when encountering new species, but that in no way precludes any aliens from not being receptive to that — and again, there is not one scene or one line in Arena that showed at the end of the ep that the Gorn were also receptive to that lesson that the third party aliens gave to the Enterprise crew. NOT ONE!
This is why it is so important for fans to know the source material better.
“All of the complaints about this is exhausting”
So stop reading them. You know what the most exhausting thing here is? People who think that just because they don’t want to have a discussion, no one should. Don’t feel like reading complaints? Then this isn’t the right board for you since it’s not a place where only praise is welcome. Complaints about the writing, the costumes, the acting, the music, even the type of potato chips and dip offered on set by craft services is all on-topic here. Going to a discussion board and saying “I wish people would stop discussing” is nonsensical.
I’m sooooo sorry my disagreement and own opinion is being such a problem.
Was I asking for positivity? No. But I’ll just make sure the door doesn’t hit me on my way out.
LOL. Good retort, my friend.
Yes. This. Thank you. There are subjects others repeat ad nauseum. But do I rag on them for it? No. That would be silly in a public forum. And yes, I know I repeat quite often too. Most of us do. If that bothers a person perhaps that person should just not read the threads.
I don’t find it exhausting. I am simply happy to present the my differing opinion every change I get. ;-)
Great point!
In addition, we never see that the Gorn got that point that the Enterprise crew got. At the end of the ep, we only see the Enterprise crew learning the lesson from the lecture by the 3rd Partly Alien race — there is ZERO EVIDENCE presented that the Gorn crew learned the same lesson. We see the Gorn on the planet, and he is relentless, uncaring and bent on killing.
Whenever people say Goldsman is an “Academy Award Winning Writer” I kindly point them to the direction of Batman and Robin. When has winning an Academy Award mattered in the long run? We are talking about and organization who never gave awards to names like Kubrick or Hitchcock and instead gave one to Sheakspeare in Love instead of Saving Private Ryan. So yeah for me winning an Oscar doesn’t give one prestige, I think it just gives them bigger ego.
You really do need some new material. :-)
eh…they aren’t really wrong though. The academy award was for a biographical adaptation, something you can’t really deviate too far from…look at these other ventures into already existing material:
Lost in Sapce (98) – oof –
I Robot for cripes sake…double oof
I am Legend – another one that completely missed the thread of the original novel and instead just went for zombies because zombies
Transformers…well, there’s a lot of blame to go around on that one
Divergent – never read it so no opinion
The Dark Tower – :\
I’ll give him a pass on the Batman stuff because the director’s vision was what was out of control there
I love I Robot, and I love I am Legend — both are in in top sf movies of all time. I Robot was better than the source material as well, and I love Asimov.
Divergent was the best outcome you could hope for based on the crap novel (which I read).
The Dark Tower — the studio and Ron Howard insisted on a PG-13 and sort of a boy’s adventure as a family blockbuster — the writers delivered that, and if you were not a King fan and wanted a movie like that, you enjoyed it.
Lost in Space, yeah, not so good, but the Netflix streaming series was just as bad. I think the Lost in Space concept is just to cheesy to be adapted to modern times/families, and when AG did that, of course everyone bitched about the family dynamics not being cheery…and same with the Netflix series.
Nope. Watch the ep again. At the end of the ep, we only see the Enterprise crew learning the lesson from the lecture by the 3rd Partly Alien race — there is ZERO EVIDENCE presented that the Gorn crew learned the same lesson. We see the Gorn on the planet, and he is relentless, uncaring and bent on killing.
It’s amazing to me how many fans basically anthropomorphise (for lack of a better word) the Gorn simply because our Enteprise crew responded to the lesson that was taught.
So they acted like what we could expect from Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, and the captains of ships of a whole host of other Trek species that would have killed Kirk in this same situation too, right? Are they all “unthinking” aliens that can’t be reasoned with too?
A key point in “Arena” is the possibility the Federation has (unintentionally) invaded Gorn space by settling on Cestus III, and the Gorn reaction, instead of being just that of “alien monsters,” was of a people defending themselves.
KIRK [on viewscreen]: You butchered helpless human beings
GORN [OC]: We destroyed invaders, as I shall destroy you!
MCCOY: Can that be true? Was Cestus III an intrusion on their space?
SPOCK: It may well be possible, Doctor. We know very little about that section of the galaxy.
MCCOY: Then we could be in the wrong.
SPOCK: Perhaps. That is something best decided by diplomats.
MCCOY: The Gorn simply might have been trying to protect themselves.
SPOCK: Yes.
You miss the whole point of Kirk sparing the Gorn captain. That he’s not just a lizard monster. But a person who may be making a bad choice based on a misunderstanding.
And because Akiva Goldsman thinks they were just killer alien lizards, Strange New Worlds goes back to nah, they’re monsters who can’t be empathized with.
LA’AN: “The Federation teaches that if we can find a way to empathize with an enemy, then they can one day become our friends. They’re wrong. Some things in this universe are just plain evil. Have you ever seen eyes that are both dead and hungry at the same time? To them, humans are just walking feed bags of flesh, bone, and jelly. The Gorn trigger a primitive, ancient terror in warm-blooded species. We are prey. And when they hunt, they’re unrelenting. The truth is, plenty of people have seen the Gorn. They just don’t live long enough to talk about it.”
That’s the exact opposite message from what “Arena” tries to get across, and now we know why. Goldsman doesn’t understand what “Arena” was about.
HUGE agreement here. You hit the nail squarely on the proverbial head there. Good job.
Also the Kirk’s reaction to the Gorn wiping out the outpost was the same as the Gorn’s reaction to the establishment of the outpost. But after hearing what the Gorn said he realized what he was doing and when the opportunity came refused to make the fatal blow.
Please provide me one single line from Arena that shows the Gorn understood and accepted ANY lessons from the 3rd Party Aliens like the Enterprise crew did?
I provided more detail in my other response today to you on this, so please see that post of mine. But the sum of it is, yeah, the Federation side got a nice empathy lesson from that encounter, but there was not any evidence presented at the end of the ep that the Gorn got a similar lesson…ZERO EVIDENCE.
So canon is open for the Gorn to be as mean as as non-empathetic as the Kurtzman team wants to make them in SNW. This is a FACT given that there is no evidence of a scene or line of dialogue from the Gorns in Arena that would preclude this.
So again, I challenge you to provide me one scene or single line of dialogue from Arena which disproves my logic above? Just one!
There’s an episode of TAS that has a Gorn calmly sitting in council with other species and not waiting to maul anything
True, but GR never considered TAS canon. And he never personally changed his view on that in his own writing or in public comments.
I swear, I feel like he had someone ghost-write A Beautiful Mind.
Weren’t you the one lecturing me here recently in a very forceful way about how you thought I was besmirching others here in my comments?
Do you even realize that Akiva likely reads this? Imagine what the dude would think when he would read this basically libelous personal insult on his character, and suggesting that his greatest achievement could be fraudulent?
Practice what you preach.
I felt like Discovery’s S2 finale was them learning the lesson that trying to tackle pre-TOS with true creative freedom couldn’t work. They made their best attempt reconciling things with their cover-up before moving on to the blank slate of the 32nd century. Goldsman and Meyers have learned nothing from this. They want to have their cake an eat it too despite the fact that they don’t appear to even like cake all that make.
Akiva Goldsman: “Because for me, storytelling beats canon”
“Canon” is just another word for the previous storytelling that has come before. Not respecting the story that has come before suggests that maybe you should be getting your personal creative expression out in another story all together and not the continuing Star Trek story. As fans, we are invested in the details of the history of this universe. It’s a big part of why it works and builds on itself. It’s part of the joy people experience. It’s world building. If you want to add something new or even contrary, be creative in how you do it, don’t try and erase details laid out by other artists who made the mosaic. Michael Burnham is great example of working something in to canon to tell a new story. They found the space for it.
To make creative changes, and to be able to tell the story of Kirk, Spock et al at the time of TOS, JJ and his team, including Kurtzman, created a brilliant work around that made it possible to do the films that they did. The result was great. It’s lazy to just decide that something you don’t like “just never happened.”
I’m not impressed with his rational or respect for the source material. Working within constraints is just part of the job. Do that job – or leave and go work on something that no one actually cares about. Trek needs artists who will be custodians of what came before and add to it from another angle and enrich it.
The glaring inconsistencies will later have to be retconned and cleaned up by future writers. This person will never be loved by the fans because of this disrespect for the details. This will be his biggest credit when looking back at his career – and he will not even be respected for his work on it. No legacy, just another hack writer who disrespected what came before. His scorn on here is earned by his statements.
He wrote A Beautiful Mind and won an Oscar for it. Strange New Worlds is never going to be the biggest thing on his résumé, and frankly it’s not even going to be the biggest thing people rag on him for either.
If you take on a unique property with decades of established unbroken continuity, then yes you should accept the challenge of trying to fit your new contributions into that. But it’s also unreasonable to shackle writers with that many rules when the job they were first and foremost hired to do was tell entertaining stories.
I’m not opposed to the arguments people have for what’s being undermined in TOS, but these are some very stringent rules to put on a creative. Star Wars had it easier because it was just a few hours of movies until recently. Doctor Who alternately has violated continuity and been enslaved to it to uneven results. Nothing else out there beyond long running soap operas has to contend with the sort of detail-minding we’re asking them to take so seriously. A little perspective is in order here.
This will be his biggest credit when looking back at his career
LOL, WTF? SERIOUSLY?
The dude won an Academy Freaking Award for writing A Beautiful Mind
Please don’t be so lazy as to not even read someone’s bio before you take potshots at their career. You are only embarrassing yourself with not knowing this.
He did but that was over twenty years ago and people are more likely to remember his numerous television credits over the past decade (and for writing the infamous screenplay for “Batman & Robin”).
So, yeah, I’d have to agree that Goldsman will now be more closely associated with and remembered for his work on Star Trek than that Oscar win.
don’t forget also that A Beautiful Mind was a real biography that someone else wrote. And even then storytelling trumped “canon” – it’s just that more people know and care about the history of the Gorn than they did about John Nash. In fact, pretty much nothing about A Beautiful Mind was accurate except that there was a man named John Nash who was good at math and struggled with a mental illness.
Well at least that was done legally and publicly in the correct way, including the book rights being purchased.
By contrast, George Lucas and Lawrence Kasdan are getting zero credit and financial compensation for Matalas basically ripping off the last half of their ROTJ screenplay for the final two eps of Picard S3.
Also, the Batman and Robbin example is getting old. I mean, Richard Matheson wrote Jaws 3D, Michael Cimeno wrote Heaven’s Gate, Martin Brest wrote Gigli, and Gloria Katz wrote Howard the Duck. So what?
You have a really outsized view in terms of the number of Trek fans in the world versus the number of overall cinema fans, and also the number of people in the cinema industry, in the world.
He’s ALWAYS going to be more well known by more people worldwide for the A Beautiful Mind Oscar than a couple of Trek series.
Sorry for being bitter for a second here. It sure feels like SNW is going the same way as TOS in one area. And that’s James T Kirk and Spock getting nearly all of the spotlight. Which isn’t their fault at all, just the writers. I know why that’s still the case, those two are iconic. I’m just bitter because it leaves other characters that are also interesting out of it unless they get some little moments and they’ll end up getting no development at all.
“Storytelling beats canon. And that may not be popular, but it’s the truth.”
I honestly have no idea what this even means. As has been pointed out elsewhere, “canon” simply means “what has officially happened so far in the story.” Canon is story; they’re not two separate concepts.
Is Goldsman saying that, in order to tell a good story, a writer should — or at least can — ignore what has happened so far in the story? That literally makes no sense.
If you are ignoring canon, then by definition you are not telling a “story.” You’re telling an anthology of unrelated anecdotes.
Well put.
You’re right, they appear to have an entirely different understanding of canon, than most of us here do, or than what is its exact definition. It reads as, to them, “canon” might mean something more akin to “stifling rules.” 🫲🥴🫱
+1
“If you are ignoring canon, then by definition you are not telling a ‘story.’ You’re telling an anthology of unrelated anecdotes.”
Y’all say a lot of dumb sh*t here, but this might actually be the dumbest thing I’ve seen on TrekMovie. I commend you.
wrong. It’s 100% accurate. For example, there is no Twilight Zone canon because the stories are not intended to ever interlink. Any canonicity to be found would be within each story itself and if there was to be a subsequent follow-up written later. For example, a sequel to Nightmare at 10,000 Feet must assume the plan did NOT crash into the basic history of the tale. To do otherwise would break that canon. But a followup to “The Monsters are Due on Maple Street” doesn’t care or even relate to “Nightmare” or “Jess Bell” etc…that is a true anthology.
While Roddenberry initially did envision TOS as a pure anthology with a roster of the same characters, it grew into something much more (especially on the strength of DC Fontana and subsequent series / films), so it is no longer an anthology but more like a Tolkienesque legendarium with a complex and known history, characters, and events. Nobody would do a prequel to Lord of the Rings and intentionally say, turn Gandalf into a friendly shaggy dog, simply because “story trumps canon”
(sigh, I do feel the need to address that yes…Rings of Power is problematic in terms of canon but that’s purely for legal reasons due to the estate and rights of the original material. Star Trek
doesshould not have this problem)Not just super rude, but you really don’t seem to comprehend… 🫤 NX-01 absolutely nailed it as far as the executive producers’/co-showrunners’ complete misunderstanding of those terms goes (story, canon, anthology)! 🤦♂️
well said.
And ironically “If you are ignoring canon, then by definition you are not telling a “story.” You’re telling an anthology of unrelated anecdotes.” – is what TOS was originally meant to be but grew into something far more.
That Klingon makeup – as welcome as the appearance was – still looked rough, like comic-con, home made rough. I dunno if it is the materials or the lighting or what, but Worf’s makeup looked eon’s better on Picard, even in 4K.
Glad I wasn’t the only one of noticed that. You could practically see the latex.
Not only was Worf’s makeup better on PICARD; it, and that of other Klingons, was better on *TNG*.
Worf is an iconic character and both Matalas and Dorn knew they had to get it as right as possible or the fans would freak lol. It’s funny though, people did originally commented on the white hair issue when we first saw him in promotional material. By the time the show came around, it was no longer an issue.
“Because for me, storytelling beats canon. And that may not be popular, but it’s the truth.”
I already know he’s getting beat up here and other places for saying this and I will say that this would be fine if you weren’t making a prequel in a 55 year old established universe.
And for the record, this is certainly not the first time this happened in Trek obviously but most of those instances were usually smaller or not sooooo blatant like what is happening here. This is what boggles the mind to me, if you truly believe storytelling beats canon, fine, but then make an original story that just avoids all that completely OR you simply establish you’re working in a new universe or timeline and then you can contradict anything you want. Instead, they went with option C.
I can’t blame people for feeling upset about it. And let’s not pretend this is a Star Trek issue alone. Imagine if George Lucas had the same philosophy in his own prequel movies and wrote at the end of Revenge of the Sith that he decided Obi Wan went to the dark side of the force and Anakin had to stop him? Fans would lose their shit. Obviously that’s an extreme example but it goes to the same point that you are now creating new ideas to the point you really are just breaking canon and you don’t care that you are. That’s basically what he’s saying.
I have been a defender and really liked SNW since day one. But same time, I always go back to my main issue with prequels, if you can’t do it right then just don’t do it at all.
I’d say even within an established universe, some bits of storytelling are more worthwhile than others. I’m OK with some canon being overwritten if it adds something of equal or greater value to the franchise. Trading in the whole message of “Arena” for an Aliens rip-off doesn’t make the cut, though.
Yes, if it adds something that makes it of value, then I think most fans will be OK with it. The problem they have is most fans simply don’t like what they are doing with the Gorn in the first place. Even if you can argue it aligns with canon, it’s doing it in a really unpopular way and overwriting them in how they were introduced in Arena.
For the record, I’m not that personally bothered they are overwriting Arena but even for me they are just going too far with it!
This is a valid argument. They keep going to the prequel well and setting themselves up for this because they want to reuse all the old staples and so many of the old characters. I don’t envy the task of having continuity police on their case and we need to be a little forgiving because few other shows have this problem (and it’s not like Days of our Lives gives a toss if they violate continuity). But they did bring it on themselves by making two more prequels on the backs of Enterprise getting plenty of flak in its day.
Discovery going into the future is still a sound idea, as was Picard, it’s just the execution didn’t appeal to me the way TNG managed to after TOS.
I’m of the opinion that this group shouldn’t be touching Star Trek at all. But since they are still under contract to produce the shows, at the very least they should stay completely away from prequels. They obviously don’t have the skill or imagination to create those kind of stories that fall in line with what came before. Enterprise wasn’t perfect but they still did about as good a job of it as one should expect.
It’s not a prequel problem. It’s a writer problem. They aren’t good. Period.
right. Somehow the novelists have for 50 odd years figured out how to weave new tales into existing canon. Maybe they should hire an actual Trek storyteller. I say the same thing about Star Wars as well.
Trekmovie, you (still) need a copy editor for these interview transcripts! There are (at least) five typos that instantly stand out, and impact easy reading… 🫤
Other than that, I agree with most opinions voiced on here, that disregarding canon with the Gorn leaves a bitter taste. And just doing what so many TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT writers have done (showing creativity in coming up with an entirely new species to fit your needs) would’ve simply been better! Heck, they appear to be capable of doing so in making Pelia a Lanthanite instead of an El-Aurian. 🤷♂️
Breaking canon is lazy storytelling. It is only going to make the show less popular. But there is an end run around it. All they have to do is say that discovery and SNW are part of its own universe, not the prime one. Just like the Kelvin universe. It’s that simple.
I’ve agreed with this all along. It would make it all much easier and palatable.
+ 1
+2
Wow this interview makes me LESS likely to watch SNW. Shouldn’t an interview with the showrunners make me want to watch the show? They are the worst. I’m glad I have classic Trek and Picard season 3.
Ah yes, The Picard Awakens series I just watched. Turning Star Trek into Star Wars was just lovely.
So instead we should turn it into Alien with Gorn Xenomorphs?
Not a bad point, but at least that would be a science fiction direction versus fantasy, so I’ll take Alien over SW.
JJ already tried to turn Trek into Star Wars in 2009. I’d admit the scene with the Enterprise-D flying into the Borg cube was a direct rip-off of ROTJ , but what other Star Wars references were there? I love PS3 because of the treatment of the characters and the set-up & payoff of plot details. Sure, there’s stuff I don’t like, but it’s nowhere near as bad as other nu-Trek, including SNW. Treating the Gorn like mindless murderers is just blatantly ignoring established storylines, and bad writing. In fact, I’ll double-down and say PS3 treated their villains, the Borg, with more reverence and similarities to the TNG version than SNW does with the Gorn.
Father and son in the huge Deathcube, at odds with each other, combine forces to kill the Emperor/Borg Queen at the same time that Data Calrissian is piloting the Millennium D into the DeathCube to destroy it at it’s center…while at the same time the other third of their party in doing a mission on a nearby planet that needs to be completed in parallel to avoid disaster. It’s a carbon, freaking copy of the last half ROTJ. Even JJA didn’t go that far in making Trek like SW.
And now for Legacy, we have to our ask ourselves this. Do we really think that Matalas will be able to resist using Jack’s Borg/Picard’s corpse derived, near-Jedi-like powers as a plot device several times per season to the crew out of jams? And I think it would only be a matter of time before Matalas gave Jack telekinetic powers as well. He’ll basically end up being a Jedi, less the light saber.
Jack’s abilities make sense: he can control people under 25 that were assimilated through the transporter. But now that is not possible anymore due to reversing the effects, I doubt Jack will be able to use his abilities unless it’s on an assimilated person. Maybe on Seven?
But the entire season of PS3 was not like Star Wars, but more like Star Trek, especially the 4th episode.
That whole Jack controls under 25’s thing never really made sense. It’s science fiction so I guess we can go with it, though. But it doesn’t take into account alien species, though. Supposedly there are a lot manning the Star Ships in that time.
Good points, but Troi was always able to read the emotions of many different alien species, why not Jack control different species?
True but didn’t they explain that it worked only because that portion of the brain was still in growth? Wouldn’t it make sense that different aliens have brains that not only operate differently but grow and mature at different rates? Also, Troi’s empathic abilities weren’t 100% for all. Weren’t there aliens she couldn’t read? Plus, her limits seemed to change from show to show depending on what the story needed.
OK, but my point is that I don’t think Matalas will be able to resist using and expanding on Jack’s powers if he’s given the chance to do Legacy. That’s my opinion, and of course, I can’t prove it. But the dude took so many shortcuts and came up with that Picard’s corpse nonsense that I think I am more likely right than not.
I like how Matalas retconned Picard’s disease into a product of when the Borg assimilated him into Locutus. It also explained how Picard was able to “hear” the Borg in First Contact. AND using his DNA it was a clever way to assimilate people using the transporters. Maybe I’m a simple man, but I liked how it all fit together nicely.
Well that’s good for you then. For me, I actually laughed when I hear the whole “Picardenstien” corpse’s brain material thing.
I have said this before, IMHO if a story is well written, then canon becomes secondary! BUT AND THIS IS A HUGE CAVEAT – If a show and story stinks, like what we saw in the first 6 episodes of Discovery, then for me canon becomes paramount and extremely important!
That is why people piled on regarding the Discovery Klingons – because the show was horribly written and story was extremely bad.
It would be refreshing to hear the showrunners admit the mistakes and the misteps that were taken instead of referring to them as “challenges”!!
Well, to play Devil’s Advocate for Discovery a little, the show’s production has been nothing but a series of challenges. Bryan Fuller was let go and everyone had to scramble under the gun to piece together a show from his outlines and characters. His lieutenants who took over were let go for bad behavior. COVID affected post production of season 3 and production of season 4.
Just getting a polished show onto TV screens after all that is a hell of an achievement, so I don’t blame them if anyone looks at it as proudly having overcome non-stop hellish production problems before owning up to any creative mistakes.
Fair comment and I agree, the show has endured an almost endless series of challenges – many of their own making. That said, there have been some highlights. IMHO since midway through S1 Discovery has improved (albeit sometimes at a glacially slow pace). I have watched the show with various levels of enjoyment throughout its five year run, highlighted by S2’s storyline with Pike, Spock and Number One plus I did enjoy the Georgiou mini story arc of S3 along with many of the individual episodes including the one featuring backstory of Adira and the Trill.
But fan reaction drives ratings (as demonstrated by Picard S3) so perhaps Paramount’s PR department should provide some basic talking points to Goldsman. i.e. Go ahead and say storytelling can beat canon, but qualify it with something like, but it is a slippery slope. If the story is great, people will forgive you but if it is bad, then you can create a firestorm. Btw, to be fair to Goldsman, maybe he did qualify his answer and the editors chose to leave that out, although I would be surprised if that happened.
Let’s see what happens with the new Gorn. If the story is good (and SNW has a good track record of good storytelling), then for me all will be good.
+1.
Well said , If you Don’t care about canon , You should Not be trying to rewrite it ……. Its what Doomed Discovery/Enterprise/ and Pickard …….. I think the Only thing that let Discovery go as long as it did , was seeing Pike, and then Jumping into the future …….. The way their writing this crap ! You may as well NOT bring the TOS crew back at All ……. ALLA , JJ Abrams ST Universe !!!!!!
Starting to think “Strange New Worlds” should have been called “Hackneyed Old Worlds (Badly Interpreted).”
“I would say this season is an arc about emotion.”
I would say that we’d be a lot better off if these writers failed to come back post-strike. Goldsman in particular needs to be gone for good.
Agreed.
Another agreement. Honestly I tend to side with labor on these things but I also feel that raises should be earned. And given the quality of the writers overall in the industry, especially those working for Secret Hideout, I find myself siding with the studios this time.
Exactly. These writers want MORE money to produce this dreck?
This interview. This interview is why they fail.
Listen to Matalas’ interview and you understand why Picard Season 3 succeeded. People care.
“for me, storytelling beats canon”
If he were a competent storyteller, I might find a way to agree with that.
Posted before but HAD to share more thoughts.
The 2016 visual reboot, while adding modern cinematic flair and high-end production quality, regrettably came at the expense of this cherished consistency. There was a certain distinctive aesthetic to the original series and those that followed, reflective of their time period. The iconic and instantly recognisable look of Star Trek ships, aliens, and technologies formed an essential part of the Star Trek identity.
Changing this continuity not only disrupted the visual connection that audiences had with the original series but also challenged the suspension of disbelief. This is particularly true for the prequel series, Discovery, which appeared more technologically advanced than the successor series, an anachronism that strained credulity. One could argue that such an update was necessary to compete with modern science fiction shows and appeal to a contemporary audience, but this ignores the reverence and fondness that audiences had for the established lore and visual canon.
Certainly, a modernisation of the look and feel was both necessary and desirable, but this could have been achieved without violating the established visual continuity. This balance was struck by Star Trek: The Next Generation, which while being noticeably more modern and refined than the original series, maintained a clear and respectful connection with it.
The visual design team could have focused on a more organic evolution of the original design, by refining, smoothing, or subtly updating without completely changing the familiar architecture of the Starship or the look of the Klingons, for instance. This approach would have offered visual familiarity and consistency while also adding a sleeker, more contemporary aesthetic.
In addition, the special effects could have been improved without disrupting the design continuity. The advent of CGI technology allows for the creation of more realistic, immersive environments and battle scenes, without necessarily changing the design of ships, uniforms, or alien species.
While the modern, cinematic approach of Star Trek: Discovery is a visually impressive achievement, it is a regrettable deviation from the rich visual continuity that has been a hallmark of the franchise. While modernisation was needed to keep the series relevant and competitive, this could have been achieved with more subtlety and respect for the established canon, thereby preserving the essence of Star Trek for future generations.
One can draw comparison from the Star Wars franchise, a series that’s remained a cultural touchstone whilst also navigating the choppy waters of visual updates. The original Star Wars trilogy boasted a unique, gritty aesthetic – a ‘used future’ concept that became an integral part of the franchise’s identity. When George Lucas returned to this galaxy far, far away with his prequel trilogy, he could have disregarded this visual legacy in favour of the sleek and shiny CGI aesthetic that was becoming prevalent at the end of the 20th century.
Yet, Lucas demonstrated restraint and a keen understanding of the franchise’s visual legacy. While the prequel trilogy did incorporate a more polished look, particularly evident in the design of the Starships and the cityscapes, it was framed within the context of the narrative as representing an earlier, more sophisticated time in the galaxy. It showed a society in decline, moving towards the grimy aesthetic that fans had come to love from the original trilogy.
The return of the Star Wars franchise with “The Force Awakens” in 2015 demonstrated even more deftly how to update the visual continuity while honouring the original aesthetic. The sequel trilogy, along with standalone films like “Rogue One” and “Solo”, managed to modernise the look of Star Wars, taking full advantage of contemporary special effects and cinematography techniques, yet retaining the distinctive design elements that made the original Star Wars so iconic.
Furthermore, the Star Wars franchise succeeded where Star Trek: Discovery stumbled in the creation of prequel content. “The Clone Wars” animated series, as well as the aforementioned “Solo” and “Rogue One”, were able to incorporate contemporary visual effects without damaging the established aesthetic continuity. The design elements were updated subtly, but the general look and feel of the universe were preserved, thereby maintaining the suspension of disbelief.
To sum up, Star Wars serves as an exemplar of preserving visual continuity whilst modernising a franchise. The series has demonstrated that it is possible to retain the visual essence of a franchise while also creating an updated, visually engaging cinematic experience for contemporary audiences. This could have served as a worthy blueprint for the visual evolution of Star Trek.
It’s just a shame they are wilfully ignorant of this.
While 100% agree with you, what if the hallmark of the Star Trek series is change. I’m just getting used to the idea that this might be the case. It’s the same way I am hoping to approach SNW. This is a series about emotions, and not the logical stories about the encounters in the universe that I fell in love with, that honestly gave me solace as a young person.
A better comparison might be Doctor Who. Looks of the series, and the template of the stories, were changed fairly frequently.
Star Wars is the only one that made a huge worldwide impact worth keeping.
You’ve said in detail what I have been saying for the last few years. The new aesthetic is so far removed from what we have seen before that it doesn’t look like its even part of the same universe. A good example of a prequel that updated while still looking like it could evolve into what we know will come is Enterprise. Granted they had the advantage of being 100 years before TOS. But this shows it CAN be done and done well.
And I’ve made the Star Wars example too. Say what you will about the quality of the shows themselves but the look and feel of their universe has always been consistent.
Excellent synopsis, there.
This interview perfectly points out why Picard Season 3 was a top downloaded show, and Strange New Worlds doesn’t even register. It shows how respectful Terry Matalas was and how Akiva Goldsman and Henry Alonso Myers spit in the faces of fans. Goldman’s comment, “Because for me, storytelling beats canon,” says it all, and it makes no sense. I don’t understand why they need to play with Canon, as they could have the exact same show without doing that.
The Gorn didn’t need to be the “Gorn.” They could have been a completely new species. The Chapel triangle with T’Pring could have been Leila Kalomi. In addition, there was absolutely no need to bring Khan into it, and it has added NOTHING to the show. La’an could have been the exact same character without this lineage. Seriously, Kirk and Spock wouldn’t remember a Khan relative? Come on, how stupid are we?
Speaking of Kirk, that is unnecessary as this should be the “Pike” show. Other things include throwing away that Spock’s first command was the Galileo 7. Following that, don’t even get me started on Dr. M’Benga versus Dr. Boyce (Jeffrey Combs should have done this) and the lack of all the characters from The Cage.
And the writing is just awful. One thing that Roddenberry and Berman Trek did so well as not to get caught up in language that would age. Really, “petal to the metal” in the 23rd century? Again, just weak, and the total disregard for an intellectual audience and fans is horrendous.
“And the writing is just awful. One thing that Roddenberry and Berman Trek did so well as not to get caught up in language that would age.” – yes the new era is desperately missing it’s Justman or Piller
I know EXACTLY how Strange New Worlds can address the existence of the three Klingons once and for all without disrupting canon (specifically Worf dismissing the question in DS9).
Do an episode centered on Spock and Ash Tyler set on Q’onos that directly addresses the differences between the original Klingons (ridges), the Augment virus Klingons (smooth foreheads), and Discovery Klingons by stating that the latter of the three represents a step towards curing those still afflicted by the effects of the virus that was passed down through the bloodlines.
Ash can ask Spock to swear never to reveal what he learns about Klingons, thus ensuring that the truth is never shared among other Starfleet officers to preserve the canonicity of Worf’s dismissal.
Spock’s involvement in the story makes it an SNW episode.
The crux of the story can be about Ash struggling to restore his Klingon appearance or something.
This season is about feelings. Great. How is that different than any other nuTrek??? I want to see a season about SCIENCE. I want to see a crew that does their jobs, and respects each other’s jobs. So if Starfleet Engineers happen to be fixing your station Uhura, then know more than you. So you SHOULD respect them, and let them do their jobs. Besides, they’re there to make it BETTER. But back to science. Star Trek should be the gold standard for sci-fi. Not the Expanse, not Stargate, although Stargate is right up there. This show is called Strange New World. So where ARE they? Where are the “strange new worlds”? This show should be a planet-of-the-week, (not every episode, but 2/3rds?)encountering species where our crew walks into a moral dilemma, and is caught in the middle, with both sides of the story getting heard, and letting the audience make up their mind, and ponder. FOr example, the 1st season episode where the child has to sacrifice his life by being hooked up to the A.I. to save his world. THAT IS STAR TREK! who’s right? Who’s wrong? Both, or neither. That episode let the audience decide. This show OOZES potential. But I have a hard time getting past how everyone treats Spock like He’s retarded, and the juvenile dialogue.
I can think of several instances where the crew (be it in one of the TOS films) or TNG or DS9 made modifications to engines or other systems, and defended them. The first one that comes to mind is Geordi La Forge defending his modifications of the D’s engines to Leah Brahms, citing “real word” experience using them out in space. Maybe Uhura has certain system settings set to her preference and she doesn’t want them messed with?
Can we maybe stop using that word while we’re on the subject of juvenile dialogue?
” Because for me, storytelling beats canon.”
Fine. But then stop insisting it’s in the same continuity as the rest and have the guts to call it what it is. A reboot.
Bingo!
I understand why people get upset when it comes to canon; after all, SNW, like DSC, are set in the prime universe and for the most part continuity matters. However, in universe we have several years to go before SNW catches up to TOS. Presumably, SNW will get at least five seasons like DSC, so there is plenty of time for things to line up.
Also to point out – Remember how the Klingons looked slightly different in DSC S2 from DSC S1? I’m not just talking about the hair there were noticeable changes in the make up. Then there’s Pike; it was Akiva Goldsman who wanted to bring Pike to DSC, and it was the fan reaction that encouraged SNW. Here’s my point – Ethan Peck and others have pointed out several times that Season 2 of SNW was written and filmed before the first episode of Season 1 even streamed. The writers and production staff did not have any fan criticism (positive or negative) to influence any of Season 2’s storytelling/direction.
if you’re running the show, you shouldn’t need fan intervention. You or your staff should understand the setting enough to say ‘oh…what are are actually doing here’
Goldsman has no honour
Akiva Goldsman: Because for me, storytelling beats canon.
I 100% wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Canon is fine for some general background continuity, but there’s no universe where you’d let one line of dialogue handcuff a creative expression now. Nothing about SNW’s has me pining for the days when starships were made out of plywood. The five year mission seems to have evolved from being on extended duty deep in Federation space to more regular and routine operations. I’m not weeping over that deviation, either.
Then just reboot it and do what you want if you don’t want to be tied to canon. This has been said about 5000 times now.
It’s fine, as it stands right now. If some folks want to consider it a reboot, then do so. There doesn’t need to be an official statement from P+ to make it so.
Not if they are going to plainly ignore events and character development in TOS. It’s only been 11 episodes and look how much complaining there is now?
Imagine what it will be like if the show makes it to episode 50? Now I’m only saying this if they decided they are going to do what they want regardless of canon. If they are trying to stick to most of it, then OK, we agree. But at this point I’m not even sure of that anymore.
I’m just saying they can’t throw this ship 900 years into the future once fans start to really complain about the canon issues. So rebooting was probably the better choice from the outset listening to Goldsman’s words.
Exactly. People who work as paid, professional writers should not find it hard to respect what has already been established and weave it into new, compelling stories. They already had the groundwork and universe created for them to play in.
Personally, I’m really worried how they might handle the Kirk/Spock future relationship. I fervently hope they don’t go there. There will be absolutely nothing they can add or improve upon
It can be frustrating – are they playing in the sandbox and throwing sand everywhere just because they can? Or is it the studio really pulling the strings trying to turn Star Trek into another derivative formula? Oh well, guess I’m getting old and have outgrown this new stuff. There’s plenty of other well written, fresh new product to choose from.
If you’re a creative type, you almost have to ignore TOS, except for the general aesthetic of what the ‘in universe’ show is going to look like. I suspect that a lot of the complaining (asides from the usual BS that tends to get aimed at AK for no rational reason) is coming from folks who have head canoned the TOS universe. If we’re going to have an honest conversation of what TOS looked like, it was very thin on what Starfleet and the Federation was, let alone other in universe races. Even the TOS movies are almost unrecognizable compared to their TV episodes, with only a few ‘in universe’ years separating the TV show from TMP. TNG tended to backfill in canon for TOS, and they played loose with it, as well.
I don’t care. Yeah, I’m aware of a line of dialog in “Arena” that requires some suspension of disbelief. I also don’t need Metrons, or any other god like supreme being showing up every other episode, either. Broadly, yeah, maybe the creative team should have pointed the Enterprise into deep space, keeping the interactions with Starfleet to a minimum while exploring strange new worlds. It is a legitimate conversation to be had that the show is derivative in that fashion. They didn’t, so the character studies should be engaging. It remains to be seen how that plays out with the Gorn. Pikes arc to deal with his ultimate fate was somewhat satisfying. Christine Chapel has been a very engaging character on SNW’s, I’m looking forward to seeing more of her. She’s a vast improvement over TOS’s Chapel, who was barely more than a caricature. All of this stuff is ignoring canon, for me, and I suspect plenty others, it’s an acceptable trade off for what so far has been an engaging and entertaining show.
This show is a trip. Feels like 1965, in all the best ways! :)