“Charades”
Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Season 2, Episode 5 – Debuted Thursday, July 13, 2023
Written by Kathryn Lyn & Henry Alonso Myers
Directed by Jordan Canning
A lighthearted episode delivers mixed results with a handful of laughs along with some big character implications.
I can smell something, Captain, is that Old Spice?
WARNING: Spoilers below!
RECAP
“The beings now match”
As the Enterprise takes its time en route to survey an energy anomaly in the Vulcan system, the crew has some downtime. Christine Chapel uses this opportunity to prep for her fellowship interview with the Vulcan Science Academy while also trying to avoid Spock because—as noted by Ortegas—things “are kind of weird” between them. For his part, the science officer is taking the time to hone his Vulcan emotional control, which helps him keep his cool around the untidy Sam Kirk. It also allows him to partake in leisure activities like hanging out with crewmates in the lounge (and not getting the jokes), and taking cooking lessons with Pike (even though he can’t smell the food due to nasal suppressants (because humans stink)). With everything under control, Spock is content and looking forward to a ceremonial dinner with his fiancé T’Pring’s parents (a “big deal”). However, Pike bursts this bubble of complacency when he tells Spock he has been paired up with Chapel for the survey of that moon anomaly. On the shuttle, Spock gets it together enough to be polite until Chapel accuses him of avoiding him. Luckily, unusual readings from the anomaly save him from having to talk about it as they find a vortex above the ruins of the ancient Kerkhovian civilization. Before you can say gravitational spacetime rupture, they are pulled in and Spock blacks out, only to wake up in sickbay feeling kind of a lot… as in feeling feelings because, well… the aliens turned him into a human. WTF?
Turns out the Kerkhovians aren’t as extinct as imagined. They repaired the shuttle… and Spock. Finding their calling card, Uhura contacts an amorphous energy being called “Yellow” who lets Pike know everything is fine, “remediation has been made,” and no need to thank them for sorting out Spock’s “mixed instructions.” Bye. Spock is feeling all sorts of emotions over the prospect of being stuck like this and is in a total panic over the “serious disaster” posed by facing T’Pring’s judgmental mother. Not to worry, Pike already let the future in-laws know Spock was injured and canceled the dinner. So while Christine works on fixing his DNA, Spock jumps back into life on the Enterprise with gusto and even a smile. Now he laughs at the jokes, enjoys the cooking smells, and gets honest with messy Sam Kirk. However, the rush of emotions soon overwhelms him to the point where he starts scarfing bacon to the point of nausea, nearly breaking Una’s arm as he overdoes it with a joke, and needs to be restrained from throttling Sam over leaving too many crumbs. La’an has a moment with Spock to settle him, sorting out that he is essentially like an adolescent, smartly described as a “cocktail of anger, fear, sеxual attraction and, uh, hunger.” With a little impulse control he can get the hang of being a human and deal with his “strange feelings stirring”… and oh, my eyes are up here, mister.
“Do I really sound like that?”
In sickbay, Christine is struggling to find a fix to reset Spock and isn’t persuaded by M’Benga’s attempts to assuage her survival guilt over the accident. Because she’s so distracted, her fellowship call ends up a disaster as she faces a very rude interviewer (even for a Vulcan). When she runs into Spock afterward, he senses her pain and empathizes with her by saying “Vulcans can be such jerks,” even offering a hug. She notes this is a bit different for him and he agrees, oversharing, “Sometimes I don’t cry in the shower.” (He kids.)
Spock’s next test is reuniting with his mother, so he hides his human ears with a silly knit cap. A flustered Pike backs him up, agreeing that it’s a regulation cap. T’Pring’s family is threatening to call off the wedding, but Amanda has gotten things back on track by getting them to agree to hold the ceremonial dinner on the Enterprise. She is there to prep him for the dinner ritual and the knit cap isn’t enough to hide Spock’s real “I don’t care about logic!” feelings over the news. Amanda sees through the hat and sees her son is now as human as she is. “Hi mom.” Aww. With T’Pring’s mom looking for any excuse, Amanda says they have to stick with the plan, so she is going to have to teach her son how to do something against his Vulcan nature… learn to lie like a human. Let the hijinks commence!
Naturally, the plan starts with some fake ears, courtesy of Dr. M’Benga. Uhura leads a class on how to talk like a Vulcan, with La’an, Una, and Ortegas chiming in with advice like “more robotic” and tips on how to raise just one eyebrow. Fascinating… and pretty funny. The V’Shal dinner is comprised of three rituals, starting with serving the family tea—which requires holding the scalding hot pot as you get the pour just right. Amanda demonstrates, revealing time on Vulcan has taught her a thing or two about suppressing pain. You go, Mom. The second ritual involves the parents listing off all the faults of their children’s prospective mates. Fun! The final ritual involves mind-melding with your parent to share a childhood memory, and Spock struggles in the practice session. Una chimes in that he looks constipated, which doesn’t help. The only hope rests with the medical team coming up with a cure before they get that far. A stressed T’Pring comes on board complaining of her overbearing mother, and Spock doesn’t have the heart (or perhaps too much heart) to burden her with the news he isn’t exactly Vulcan anymore. Soon enough it’s time to meet the parents and mom T’Pil arrives as advertised, complete with a fusillade of passive-aggressive condescension. On the other hand, dad Sevet seems cool when not kowtowing to his imperious wife, who comments on the “odor” of Captain Pike’s quarters and even insults his amazing Vulcan tevmel appetizers. That’s too far.
I’m available for weddings, quinceañeras, and bar mitzvahs.
“I miss him as he was”
After exhausting everything Starfleet medicine has to offer and with only 24 hours left before the change in Spock becomes irreversible, Christine starts looking for other options. The idea is to go back to the source, and even Ortegas hesitates—briefly—before agreeing to fly her into another dimension to talk to some ancient aliens. Uhura comes along to help and suggests they “wedge” the shuttle into the interdimensional tunnel, where things go all wobbly until the trio finds themselves in a blobby void where they meet “Blue,” a bureaucratic Kehrkovian not interested in listening about they messed up Spock. Eventually, they get through to Yellow in this quantum customer service center, who wants to know who is lodging the complaint because “friends” aren’t allowed to do so outside the response period. Egged on by her friends and without a box to check “it’s complicated,” Christine admits Spock is more than a friend to her, and even though he is more fun and easy to talk to as a human, she wants the original recipe back… the Spock she was “connected to.” As they await a reply to their complaint, Yellow reveals that Spock risked his own life by diverting the shuttle’s shields to protect Christine during their accident. Fascinating.
Back at Pike’s place, Spock white knuckles through teapot pain, which leads to the “awareness” ritual when T’Pil unloads, accusing him of abandoning T’Pring to gallivant around the galaxy. Siding with Sarek, she calls him a failed son and failed Vulcan. Luckily, the timer cuts her off and Spock can excuse himself to go scream into a cushion. Pike tries to buy time by insisting they honor an Earth tradition: playing charades. T’Pil is skeptical, but Sevet is intrigued by “the sacred word.” Just in time, Christine shows up, pulling Spock back into the bathroom where things get tense as the pair struggles with how they “feel many things.” The devastated nurse injects Spock with the cure, allowing him to finish the prenuptial rituals with a successful mind meld with his mom. T’Pil acknowledges the conclusion of the dinner and backhand compliments Spock for pulling it off, despite his “handicap” and being “diluted.” Racist much? Spock has had enough, taking off his pointy ears and vigorously defending his human side, specifically his mother who has suffered this kind of Vulcan judgment her whole life. T’Pil can only sit there, chastened by this genuine moment. Two words, first word, one syllable. Sounds like… truck?
Can I speak to your manager about this tea?
Later, T’Pring lets Spock know she is not happy to be the only one on the ship who didn’t know the truth. She has shown him nothing but support, understanding, and acceptance for his human side, and with this breach of trust, it’s time they take a break. As for Christine, this whole experience filled her with a new confidence, so when she gets denied that fellowship she tells the prissy Vulcan Science Academy guy they aren’t ready for her, oh and by the way, he can read all about her groundbreaking medical mission where she encountered interdimensional ancient aliens when she publishes her paper. So there! Spock has a nice goodbye with his mom, talking about the memory she shared of the first time Spock was accepted by the other Vulcan kids. He could feel what it was like for her and just how hard it is to love a Vulcan. Reflecting on this gives Spock a new insight as he realizes he must talk to Christine, only to find her already at his door. Now that he and T’Pring are taking time apart, he feels conflicted over his other feelings for someone else, feelings he doesn’t want to suppress any longer. She gets the hint and they kiss and then kiss some more, leaving questions about what this all means for another episode.
You know this actually works out great for me T’Pring.
ANALYSIS
A funny thing happened on the way to Vulcan
“Charades” is definitely one of the episodes where the new season is taking one of its vaunted “big swings,” and while there are a lot of fun moments along the way, it doesn’t entirely hit its mark. Perhaps one of the issues is that this episode almost feels like a bit of redo of the season one episode “Spock Amok,” another romcom-style episode with a wacky sci-fi setup, in that case, Spock and T’Pring switching bodies. Maybe because it was first, “Spock Amok” is the funnier of the two. Regardless, “Charades” was well crafted as a comedic episode, helped along by director Jordan Canning, a veteran of TV comedy, as well as co-writer Kathryn Lyn, who has jumped over to Strange New Worlds after writing 10 episodes of Star Trek: Lower Decks, including the fan-favorite episode “Wej duj.” Together they delivered an episode of Star Trek that seems inspired by the best of TV classics like I Love Lucy with all the hijinks surrounding hiding Spock being human. Humor is always relative, but some gags fell a bit flat, especially following elements derived from old-fashioned sitcom tropes like the overbearing mother-in-law with a henpecked husband.
The Strange New Worlds cast were delightful as they indulged in the comedy, with Anson Mount being a particular highlight as he navigated through the Vulcan minefield as Spock’s wingman. Ethan Peck continues to impress tasked to play this new human side of Spock, reminding fans of Leonard Nimoy’s performance in the similarly themed TOS episode “This Side of Paradise.” Gia Sandhu was right there with him this time, giving her most relatable performance as T’Pring, adding some nuance and sympathy to the character who was initially introduced as more of a Vulcan ice queen. And while the role may have been cliched, guest star Ellora Patnaik (T’Pril) was far more than “adequate,” chewing up the scenes as the sort of villain of the episode, with Michael Benyaer’s Sevet providing laughs as the hapless husband who actually liked Pike’s cooking. By the way, even though this was a bottle show on the Enterprise, the Vulcan costumes and props made it all work, and kudos to the food stylist for making the Vulcan appetizers look delicious. And on the subject of food, Pike should have said something as Spock – a vegetarian – started gorging on bacon.
Are my ears on straight?
The return of Mia Kirshner was also very welcome, showing us more layers to Amanda Grayson as she both embodies the best of Jane Wyatt’s classic portrayal as well as continuing to make it her own as she did on Discovery. Her presence also helped set up the key epiphany for Spock as he came to fully understand Christine though his mother’s eyes, and the price she pays for loving Sarek. Speaking of Sarek, given how this show has been playing it fast and loose with canon, it was welcome that they stuck with Spock’s estrangement from his father as established in The Original Series, since that is a key part of what drives Spock. One thing sadly missing from the episode was Carol Kane, with her Pelia only mentioned in passing due to her established relationship with Amanda. Maybe it was due to scheduling, but Kane’s unique wit could have helped make this the comedy episode it was hoping to be.
To stick with the romcom style, the episode was set up with low stakes, with only Spock’s big dinner event on the line. So his transformation into full human was played mostly for laughs, and there were certainly laughs to be had. However, what he was going through was actually quite profound, and yet we never saw Spock explore what he was missing without his Vulcan side — beyond being able to pull off the rituals. Introducing how his transformation had a ticking clock halfway through the episode feels like an afterthought, especially as he was never informed of this key information. It might have been interesting to see him consider if he should take that cure, looking beyond the impact of the dinner hijinks. One Star Trek theme that was welcome is how the episode demonstrated the value of friendship as the crew rallied to help both Spock and Chapel, showing us both a fun side but also love and bravery, especially for the mission to return to Kerkhov. Chapel, who was the one character playing it straight, is confronted with facing the truth, although the aliens saying being “friends” wasn’t good enough to make a request belies that important Star Trek theme, all so Christine would have to just admit she not only likes Spock, she likes likes him. What did land was how Chapel actually wasn’t into the human Spock, as she loves the real Spock, the half-Vulcan who isn’t handing out hugs in corridors. While this Chapel, especially after that final scene, has completely veered off canon from the original TOS character, she continues to be a strong and relatable character with her own agency.
Are his ears crooked?
All of this focus on the romantic elements definitely swings this episode towards the soapy end of the spectrum. Even though the episode clocks in at an hour, the actual strange new world gets little attention. The Kerkhovians were set up as a fascinating ancient civilization with a penchant for procedures reminiscent of the Sheliak from TNG, they were never really explored, and just used to set up the character plot. This might be the fundamental difference that will divide fans regarding this episode, Strange New Worlds puts what would be traditional character-focused “B plots” to the front, moving the mysterious aliens sci-fi plot into the background. More consistent laughs or a richer character exploration could have made up for the big swing of this traditional reversal.
Final thoughts
In the end, “Charades” was still entertaining, especially on a surface level, which may be enough. However, it wasn’t entirely satisfying when one digs deeper in search of a great Star Trek episode. We have now hit the halfway point for the second season of Strange New Worlds. The show is to be commended for trying different things even if they don’t always work out. Luckily there are five more to go.
Spock is such a Miranda.
Bits
- The episode starts with Christine Chapel’s personal log and Spock’s science officer’s personal log, both Stardate 1789.3.
- Christine’s prep for her fellowship included memorizing Korby’s 3 principles of archeological medicine, a reference to Roger Korby, who is destined to become a love interest of Chapel’s (if this show sticks with that part of canon).
- Korby’s principles are:
- 1.) medicine is always ancient and new as cultures’ understand of what medicine is changes over time
- 2.) the keys to solving are often found by looking backward
- 3.) as a result archeological medicine is as much a study of history as it is of science.
- The Kerkhovian moon was said to be orbiting Eridani B, which is one of the 40 Eridani triple star system. 40 Eridani A has already been established as the star for the planet Vulcan.
- Pike wore his green variant tunic, first seen in season 1 (with a similar tunic later seen on Kirk in TOS).
- Vulcans using nasal suppressants around humans was established by T’Pol in Star Trek: Enterprise.
- Ortegas saying “Hold on to your butts” was likely a reference to the same line in Jurassic Park.
- Pelia was off dealing with a dilithium shortage, which could be setting up a plotline for later in the season.
- Hiding his human ears with a knit cap was likely an homage to Spock hiding his Vulcan ears with a knit cap in “City of the Edge of Forever.”
I may be allergic to knit.
More to come
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I kept reading it as Kevorkhians – which is an entirely different episode
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I heard •kirk•ovians
I expected a lot of baby Kirk-Vulcans.
All made by Sam Kirk in a timewarp
Whatcha want to bet that culture ends up being created by James T. somehow, hence the name?
So … there’s this old screenwriting/writing tip you get, when you first start creative writing: „ask yourself if you’re telling the most interesting story within the story you’re telling. And if you don’t: why aren’t you?“ (roughly paraphrased)
Here we have:
1. An ancient civilization on a moon near another pretty old spacefaring civilisation, that – for some reason – Starfleet is investigation now.
2. Chapel trying to be accepted into the Vulcan science academy as a human, which is a feat almost impossible to accomplish.
3. Spock and his mother getting closer.
4. Spock being silly.
In what world is 4. the most interesting story here? And it’s made all the more unbearable by Pecks terrible acting as a human and the other characters stopping just shy off pressing their bare butts against the fourth wall, when they lampoon „Vulcan acting“.
It’s not a terrible episode. I really liked the parts with Spock and his mother and Pike during the ceremony was the only bit of Humor that didn’t fall flat. Uhura, Ortegas and Chapel in the shuttle were interesting. Having the episode an adventure or theirs could have been fun to finally flesh out those characters a little. Although having the solution to all of this be „let’s talk about our feelings“ was painfully Discovery. >.<
The opening montage was also fun. There’s way too little „normal life on the ship“.
This show has potential but it desperately needs some good writers.
This episode was so awful that this next complaint is like number 978 on the list of awfulness — but really, a highly advanced civilization exists on another planet within the Eridani system, and in something like 2,000 years of being a spacefaring civilization (maybe more), the Vulcans have never investigated the Kerkhovians and instead rely on humans to do so?
Wow, this episode was just joyful to watch, and it’s now one of my favorites. Watching it again tomorrow with the whole family, who are not hard hard-core fans, but who I know will like this.
They hit a home run with this one in my book.
IDIC though.
Yeah that was a bit weird to me too. Why have this very very advanced but mysterious race that lived on their freaking moon has never been explored until just now??? I think it would’ve work better if A. they recently discovered them and B. maybe on another planet in the system. But I guess because the story (kind of) takes place around Vulcan they made them as close as possible. But it rings false to me too. But I really liked Blue and Yellow. They seem like cool (if a bit bureaucratic) inter dimensional aliens.
Very smart comment, and a concept I’m familiar with, but haven’t thought about it in awhile. But you make a really good point. In terms of this supposedly being a sci-fi show, story 1 from your list could have made for a great (and possibly groundbreaking) episode that would rival some of the best alien reveals through the history of Star Trek. To me, it felt somewhat “Interstellar” when they were inside the anomaly. Even though I wasn’t a huge fan of the movie, I did find the concept at the end interesting and something that helped stretch the imagination. Even with the nuts and bolts in place, this episode really didn’t push the limits on discovering a “Strange New World” that was right in front of their faces!
In general, I can’t completely knock the “Spock being silly” storyline, because I actually enjoyed a lot of it. But it could have been done in a context that wouldn’t have included more interesting stories. I also wish they would have had a deeper story with Spock and Amanda bonding, and I think they really missed out on a great moment of him expressing his heartfelt love and admiration towards her. Instead, when she shows up and he finally admits to the situation, they just move on like it’s anyone else on board.
Hmm. In my opinion that’s a tip for overthinkers who can’t simply tell a good story. My creative writing teacher in college had much better advice: Simply tell a story that you would like to read and don’t worry about anything else.
I think it’s basic storytelling that always works. I don’t think you force an approach of needing a story within a story. That’s too much process over substance. Overthinking it! Just tell a good story — it’s really that simple.
And this ep did just that. It was a solid, fun story. Just good storytelling and fun. It didn’t need a story within a story. In some eps with complex plots, OK, but even that needs to be holistically written by the writer in terms of just writing a good story, not over-analyzing and checking the box of do I have an interesting story within a story…his/her peers can judge that and give feedback. Again, just write the story you would want to read/see. It’s that simple.
I agree with you. I didn’t think I would like it, but it worked. It was funny, light-hearted, had a strange new alien, and the scenes with Amanda were very moving. I didn’t like the chapel -spock of Ep. 1 but this time it was written well and felt genuine.
Well said!
Your point number 1 was the first thing that got me. Honestly it was a little confusing because it sorta sounded like this “ancient civilization” was on the other side of the galaxy. I mean, it HAD to be, right? It couldn’t possibly be on a moon of a neighboring planet in the Vulcan system. No way. That would be just too ret… Unbelievable. But then I realized, this is Secret Hideout. Of course it doesn’t make any sense.
Your final sentence hits the nail on the head. Not only do the writers talk down to their audience, they also treat their characters badly.
It was an ok episode again this week and i felt it was simply a filler episode. After reading online that this episode was supposed to be a bit comedic i didn’t find it funny.
I disliked T’pring (and her parents) in this episode as i found her to be a lot like the Vulcan’s back in Enterprise who have insulting attitudes towards humans. For example T’Pring claims to love Spock and accept his human side yet she punishes him for a human mistake that he made.
I don’t really care for Chapel/Spock as in TOS i never got from Spock that he had any deep feelings for her and in SNW i feel it’s a waste of time as we know they aren’t going to get together anyway.
It was great seeing Amanda again in this episode and i hope this leads to seeing more Discovery characters too as i want to see Ash Tyler and L’rell again.
Overall the episode was ok i enjoyed S1 a lot more than i did this season (so far) to be honest. Hopefully there is no more filler episodes this seasons and we get some more good episodes like Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow.
does your wife/husband/significant other love you?
do they ever punish you for a mistake you made?
No we are pretty understand of each other when we make mistakes. How about you does your significant other love.punish you for all the mistakes you make?
i’ve accidentally pissed her one once or twice
Sounds messy, but I’m not judging. ;-)
oh you have no idea ;-)
Those Vulcans at least had legitimate motives for their paternalistic attitudes. Humanity wasn’t quite ready to encounter some of what was out there, as indeed Archer came to realize. Those Vulcans were *afraid* of humans, as Soval admitted.
These Vulcans were just jerks for the sake of being jerks, and the writers pulled idiotic pre-nuptial “traditions” out of their a** for the sake of doing a romcom.
I’m damn close to giving up on this series, although I confess to wanting to see the Lower Decks crossover out of a sense of schadenfreude.
At last, someone who sees it like I do, humans made a slingshot and asked the Vulcans to give them an assault rifle, Vulcans wouldn’t give it, and humans got pissed.
That’s why Vulcans were different, we were petulant demanding children and the Vulcans were being responsible parents.
The Vulcans never truly liking or understanding humans has been there since TOS as Spock himself is prejudice for simply being half human. It’s why I really liked their portrayal on Enterprise because a century earlier they still didn’t look at them as mature or capable enough to explore space. And its humans being so emotional that they feared since humans and Vulcans actually shared the same violent and hateful history; the difference being Vulcans had centuries to be peaceful and cultivated a more civil and enlightened society by the time they made it to space where as the humans literally just had a nuclear war with each other a decade that killed 600 million people after Vulcans made first contact with humans.
So it really made sense for that time period why they didn’t trust them. They were afraid humans were going to go out into space and ultimately cause their own wars and so on because they were still seen as volatile. And up until this point in history, they were. And then we got amazing episodes like Demons/Terra Prime that showed why the Vuclans were afraid humans still weren’t ready yet to become galactic ambassadors in space. In the 22nd century, I understood it. Humans still had to prove themsleves.
But a century later, Vulcans still have bigotry and prejudice against humans. It was obvious how much T’Pring’s mother didn’t like Spock for being half human. She had other reasons too but it was plainly obvious that was a big one. As I said, I do accept that SOME Vulcans, even a hundred years later, can still be racist and suspicious of humans given their history. But they have basically made all Vulcans come off as assholes even though Earth and Vulcan helped formed the Federation together. They go out of their way to show Vulcans still have disdain for humans to the point you wonder why they even bother to be in such a strong alliance together? And frankly Earth clearly doesn’t need Vulcan anymore, so why bother?
But I will say it’s a bit less of that by the 24th century but it’s still there too as we saw with Sisko and Solok. But Vulcans are not the enlighten and color blind race their IDIC PR has been pushing for centuries now, that’s for sure.
You notice that T’Pring’s father was ridiculously submissive to his wife? Was this supposed to be a joke?
Wait. You disliked T’Pring’s dad? That man was a standout!
The comedy didn’t work because it relied on making Spock a clown. That NEVER works. Spock can be funny when used correctly. In TTWT Spock had some really good amusing lines. Here the writers, if they were competent, should have dialed Spock back. His Vulcan DNA was removed. But not his upbringing. His memories. His training. He should have had a more difficult time with the emotions. Have a little trouble reigning them in. Not go full bore ‘rebellious teenager’ mode.
The writers on this show do not treat Spock with any kind of respect. Peck does what he can. Which is quite a bit. It’s a shame because I think he is better than Quinto and given good writing he could really shine in the role.
I wouldn’t worry about not getting anything about a Spock-Chapel past on TOS. This show doesn’t give a damn about TOS to begin with and they have all but admitted this is an alternate timeline/reboot anyway. So they pretty much are free to change what they want. Would be nice if producers officially said it outright instead of wasting an entire episode to suggest it, however.
I felt pretty happy with this one. A classic Trek premise (weird accident, personal things ensue) that was able to leverage a lot of levity, gave me a few laughs, and let me see into these lives a bit more. Just plain fun.
I liked Chapel more in this episode than I did in all of Season 1. I think they’re figuring her out. And this is the most fun I’ve had watching Spock himself in basically any incarnation. I won’t speak ill of Nimoy or Quinto, but I’m really pleasantly surprised by Ethan Peck. I feel like he really understands the character on a personal level, and that shows in his performance. I also enjoyed T’Pring. I do hope we get to see some more of her.
Of course, because nothing is flawless, I do have criticisms. The writing still feels too “modern” to me. Every Pre-Disco Trek show seemed to go out of its way to sound like it wasn’t from whatever era it was shot in, and while SNW feels closer to that (admittedly) stilted, devoid of popular references language that Trek used in the past, it still feels a little too modern for my tastes. The transdimensional zone could have used 10% more. How did they get out? Were they just dropped on the shuttle? What else did Chapel do?
I get that, to some folks, it’s playing kind of fast-and-loose with “canon,” but I don’t see it that way at all. Sure, history is kind of rewritten, but that has always been the case with Star Trek. Canon contradicts itself all the time. That’s fine. And while a Chapel/Spock pairing might not violate that permissive idea of canon, it certainly makes things feel crowded. We’ve got other great characters – we don’t need to do all the big building with the few that we’ve seen in previous shows.
Still, all of that together, I’m really happy with this. This is 100% the Trek that I want, and I’m here for it.
No, it really doesn’t. They’re going out of their way to demolish what came before; if they’re so eager to do that, let them come up with their own, new franchise, like THE ORVILLE did. They can even make it a sitcom.
Respectfully, Trek canon has never been too consistent. A few examples off the top of my head:
It’s all canon. Inconsistencies and everything.
You also had “Star Service” in The Conscience of the King and “Spacefleet Command” in The Squire of Gothos, not to mention “Space Central” in Miri.
In Star Trek IV: They Voyage Home, Kirk orders warp speed… while still in Earth’s atmosphere!
These are the sorts of things that make me give the whole notion of “canon” a wide berth.
I forgot about the atmospheric warp in ST:IV!
I stand by my central theme: canon is whatever is on screen. Sometimes it’s contradictory, and that’s okay.
Yep!
And I say Yep to your Yep.
Agreed about the fluidity of “canon”. Complaints surrounding it read a lot like “gatekeeping”. Personally, a fun story is fun!
It’s really easy to forget anything about IV.
100% agree!
“is it risky to go to warp in a solar system?”
LORD I hate this one. To be fair in TMP IIRC there was some issue with getting their warp field stuck with an asteroid or something? I do remember tho the ep of DS9 where they had to stop Changeling Bashir from destroying the Bajoran star and Jadzia was worried about taking the Defiant into WARP in the solar system. Whats REALLY nuts is Kirk took the Bounty into Warp in the Earth’s atmosphere LOL
Yeah, I seem to recall in TMP there was a “wormhole” or something that made things go weird, and an asteroid was involved.
I forgot about that DS9 episode! Another good point. Also, the wormhole, while not in orbit of Bajor, was still in the system. People warped to and from it all the time.
Yup yup, the whole warp in the solar system thing might just be the most wildly inconsistent thing in all of Trek!
Kirk specifically said “we have to risk” going to warp in the solar system. IIRC, Jadzia said the same thing. Neither said it was impossible.
In real-life maritime navigation, there are plenty of ports that require specialized knowledge to navigate because they’re unusually risky; hence tugboats, harbormasters, etc.
An imbalance in the warp engines caused the wormhole.
Ohhhhhh, I forgot. And they got stuck towards a heading to an asteroid in belt right?
These examples are all, or almost all, relating to things like improved special-effects and prosthetics technology, higher budgets, or working out the kinks in very early episodes. (You can add the higher pitch of Michael Dorn’s voice in “Encounter at Farpoint” to that list, for example, or the more pastel colors of the uniforms in “Where No Man Has Gone Before.”)
The few that aren’t are mostly minor or tangential plot points: Kirk’s middle initial, for instance, or the UESPA agency in a few early episodes. (We never had an entire episode built around his middle name before it was changed.) And a lot of these you can reconcile, maybe with a smidge of mental gymnastics. For instance:
The only point you can’t reconcile is the gender of Spot’s cat. That changed magically for “Genesis,” which was another worst-of-franchise candidate which featured DNA as magic.
Setting aside the “explain the discrepancy” parlor game, again, most of these are extremely minor points, the equivalent of trivial pursuit answers. It’s ultimately television entertainment, and 2020s fans aren’t going to accept 1960s-quality set design. (Even there, they backed off of the DISCOVERY Klingon makeover, which was a bridge too far.) With, what, 800 episodes or so, there’s bound to be mismatches somewhere. It’s fiction.
What I refuse to accept is broad changes in themes and characters that bastardize prior art. In TOS, we saw Chapel as a reserved introvert who quietly had an unrequited crush on Spock. In SNW, we see her as a peppy extrovert who’s had a deep, mutual emoptional relationship. You can’t reconcile those two positions. Vulcans used to be a honorable and philosophical species, even if they could be condescending at times; now, they’re all just grade A jerks. Khan used to be a shrewd tactician from the Global South; now, he’s a genocidal person of European extraction. If you think the source material is that flawed, create your own damn series.
Blithely dismissing the contradictions as “welp, canon is unimportant” is like saying that a mass reproduction of the Mona Lisa that you purchased at Target is equally as sublime as the original.
So, first off, I hear you. I want that to be clear, and I respect that these are steps too far in your view.
Politely, I’m going to challenge your assertions, and an embedded assumption within them. Your take is valid, but here’s a different perspective on it.
As to the embedded assertion, I don’t think these bastardize previous art. If Trek were handled more like Star Wars properties, where past versions of movies were systematically removed from availability and retroactively officially deemed noncanonical, then I’d be with you. But aside from the difficulty in getting non-HD/remastered versions of old episodes easily online, the old art is still there. By-and-large, the TOS Remasters are faithful to the intent of the original production. The studio isn’t going into the archives and deepfaking folks into scenes. That reserved Chapel still exists. It may take some stretching to get from one to the other, but if I can buy into a universe where two psyches can exist in one body, where people go faster than light every day, where folks can read minds over vast distances, where both mushroom magic and a prototype terraformer can bring people back from the dead, I can buy into a young person cooling over a few years.
Canon absolutely is important. But the virtue of Trek Canon, and it’s equally a fault of it, is that whatever makes it to broadcast is canon. It’s inherently additive. New stories don’t overwrite the old ones. It’s a big universe.
That was a lot of words. Thanks for reading. I want to reiterate that I don’t need/want you to like SNW and what they’re doing, nor do I think your opinion of them is wrong. De gustibus non disputandum est. I do think that you may gain from a more flexible approach to canon, if for no other reason than it may soothe you when confronting a thing you don’t care for.
Condolences on your Radio Shack experience with DAD; except for that and TOMORROW NEVER DIES, I saw all the Bond films in the theater (multiple times, except for VIEW TO A KILL) until the Craig era, which right from the start pretty much killed Bond for me (no pun intended.)
DIE ANOTHER DAY is definitely something that I would have wanted to walk out during the last hour, on even if I were in a plane (not an insurmountable problem for Bond, though it would be for the rest of us mortals.)
I saw this ep lst night; considering I have hated every episode so far this season, my response to this was mild by comparison, and I only got really bored during the second half of the show. I think when this group does comedy, they need to shrink the runtime down massively, because they just can’t sustain interest or entertainment value.
BTW, was the Enterprise flying on maneuvering thrusters for this whole show? It was said they were doing sub-impulse in the Eridani system. Did they mean sub-warp?
Scientific curiosity would have gotten the better of most Vulcans I’ve seen on screen or read about in novels; the idea that this mysterious unknown force and race went undsicovered till the E passed by seems utterly at odds with the nature of Vulcans, who strive to understand things as a cement for their logic — when they’re not being dicks. (and yeah, this is me not hating the show, but still finding tons wrong with it.)
You said what I did better.
I reconcile the Lester thing as she was mentally deficient. In HER eyes she wasn’t captain because she was a woman. But the reality was that simply wasn’t true. She wasn’t captain because she had too many issues.
Yes, with so very many episodes there are bound to be small inconsistencies. And for TOS the ones people often cite I cannot consider violations because the show was still figuring out what it was. So I don’t think it fair to rag on those.
You did mention that audiences won’t accept a duplicate of the 60’s Enterprise and you are correct. But what they did was a bridge WAY too far. I’ve said this lots of times. They could have updated the ship to not duplicate but evoke the FEEL of TOS Enterprise. As it is, nothing on that ship feels anything like Kirk’s. The one and only one thing that feels kinda sorta like it is the circular bridge. Nothing else. The PD on the show is really piss poor, I gotta say.
The bulk of those aren’t really canon violations. Small things like the first appearance of an alien not quite working right or stuff from a pilot just don’t really count in my book. Fictional events count. I wouldn’t count the Scotty thing, either. It’s a quick line before Generations was even considered. It’s like not having the NX-01 in one of those pictures in the Rec Room in TMP. I will give you playing fast and loose with galactic geography. That’s always bugged me. But time doesn’t exist on screen and the only time it REALLY bugged me was in the KU features. And the phaser alarm wasn’t a violation. VI was the first time it was used and could have easily been implemented. before that.
So I would argue that other shows usually did their best to stick with the big canonical stuff. But let some minor production issues slide because they just aren’t that important.
Voyager Futures end, take place within the time Khan left earth, there are no indications of the Eugenics Wars.
Picard season 2, no indication of sanctuary districts.
Star Trek First Contact, Zephram Cochrane is not from Alpha Centuri.
Star Trek First Contact, why did the Borg need Locutus as an individual avatar when they had a Queen
Voyager, why weren’t the crew of the D turned into salamanders?
Star Trek has a history of retcons, it’s frustrating that the old generation of fans seems to draw the line.
Lol, exactly. How soon some fans forget.
Well, at our age, some of us are prone to be forgetful, not to mention a touch cantankerous
That one hit close to home — 100% correct. LOL
IIRC TOS stated the Eugenics wars took place mostly in the middle east and asia but it’s been a LONG time since I saw TOS. A certain friend of mine might come here and totaly correct me lol
PIC season 2 did have a sancutary District sign.
Locutus was never meant to lead the Borg, he was meant to be a bridge between the Borg and humanity. Although I admit she was a total retcon of the “hive mind” as the Queen is not a hive mind.
Yeah. Just as WWI & II didn’t have one battle on US soil. The Eugenics wars (or WWIII as TOS also suggested) very well could have been fought in Asia, Australia or anywhere but North America and people’s lives in ’96 Los Angeles would still go on. At least, that was how I figured it. The one touch that could have helped would have been newspaper headlines about it. But I don’t consider it a big deal. It’s not like they changed when certain alien species were encountered or enter personalities of known characters. ;)
Not me. I accept a definition of canon I found online. “‘Canon’ means that the material was produced by the official source for the show/movie.” That means as new creators take over a property, canon can be changed. I’ve been around long enough to just go with the flow on this canon stuff.
Well, that’s one way to re-open the gates of ijtihad.
Picard season 2 had sanctuary district signs in the background I believe.
Lol, Enterprise was much worse, and TMP completely reinvented the visual canon of TOS, much more so than SNW is now doing.
It seems like most fans (at least those who continue to watch the show) have accepted the “visual canon” and the fact that technology has advanced and it doesn’t make much sense to recreate a 1960’s set. What isn’t as easy to accept is that beloved and well-known characters are changed (in some cases completely), previously non-existent relationships come out of nowhere, fictional timelines are completely changed to make a fictional show “more relatable”, and complete alien races have become almost unrecognizable.
People didn’t complain about TMP due to the visual changes, because many people were just blown away to see the Big-E in all her glory on the big screen. Plus, the characters were all still there, and they were still the people that fans and grown to love through the original run and reruns.
Like many of the other details listed earlier in this thread, “visual canon” isn’t a dealbreaker for a lot of fans. But trying to claim that a character who doesn’t even resemble their previous counterpart is the same person and attempting to re-write the timeline of one of the most significant plots in franchise history tends to rub people the wrong way.
I don’t disagree with some of what you are saying, but (and I was in my teens and involved in fandom at the time of TMP) some fans in 79/80 were in fact complaining about the changes in the visual canon, especially the Klingons, the uniforms, the transporter effects, Vulcan and the warp effects (especially the wormhole scene). But the redone E was a big hit of course.
People didn’t complain about TMP due to the visual changes
I was in high school when that came out and I can assure you that people did.
I was in HS as well. And a big reader of Starlog and all those other mags. I understood the reasoning behind the change in looks for the feature film. And from what I read most everyone else did, too. Complaints were few and far between.
Precisely.
Except for most of the ship exterior, I hated a lot of the TMP redesign. The lighting coming from the floor, the palette, the consoldes molded into walls, the huge stretches of dead space, the stupidity of oval monitors and the massive visual uninterest (like the front of the helm being prominently features, even though it has not so much as a ridge or vent on it, turning it into an utter eyesore – even BLAKE’S 7, an utterly cheapo show, dressed up that area of SCORPION with what looked like sunglass racks.)
I thought there was a lot of good work done on engineering, though it still had issues like consoles that jiggled when keypunched — the sort of thing one might have expected on a TV series, not a feature film.
I’m not going to jump all over the trasnporter effects, because the time crunch impacted everything, and 90 percent of them are still glorious.
No. Enterprise was actually pretty good with adhering to the rules that applied to them. It wasn’t perfect but they didn’t compound their few mistakes by continuing to make the same ones. And there was no “reinvention of ‘visual canon'” on TMP. That was simply normal changes in everything due to the passage of time.
We’re clearly not watching the same franchise. Enterprise was four seasons of canon violations all by itself.
We’re clearly not watching the same franchise. Enterprise was four seasons of canon violations all by itself.
Yeah, Enterprise was much worse in terms of violating canon, starting from the first second of TV when they showed the wrong starship design…and the canon retcons spiraled downhill from there. And TMP was one of the biggest canon shocks ever given the changes from TOS.
I’m sorry I don’t agree with this at all. Enterprise had it’s canon issues for sure (Ferengis anyone?), but its nowhere close to the ridiculous canon violations Discovery had. At least Enterprise looked like it fit in the 22nd century and the Star Trek universe. DIS looked like it fit in another universe entirely and closer to the 25th century than the 23rd and exactly why its in the 32nd century today.
And while SNW is better than DIS in that regard, it’s still screwing up canon to a major level. Just in a different way than DIS and ENT did I guess.
SNW screwed up canon so very badly they felt they had to write and entire episode to explain why they think their version is the “prime” version now.
LOLOLOL!
Was it? If it was then it was super duper teeny tiny bits that nearly no one noticed or cared about or that mattered.
As I said earlier, they were pretty good in following the rules. And the few times they made mistakes they didn’t arrogantly double down and keep making that mistake over and over as if they were right and the source material was wrong.
100% agree – Star Trek’s canon is one of the reasons it makes it feel special and real to the fans. Destroying it “just because” aka lazy writers, should not be acceptable to fandom. Like Tolkien fans or any other universe.
Well… They did pretty much eliminate everything TOS with that previous episode. Which puts them in their own KU-like timeline/reboot. Probably because they knew they didn’t have the creativity or talent to write shows that actually conform with TOS.
I actually enjoyed this one the most of the season so far. Loved how the aliens sounded like Siri or Alexa.I just wanted to see a bit more of the actual charades game.
100% agreed. I’d have loved to see a round where Sevet got really into it
Sevet was down for anything that game (or Pike’s kitchen) had to offer. He was such a standout!
His wife must keep his Vulcan gonads somewhere. He sure didn’t have them with him in that episode!
Might be that Vulcans train like sumo wrestlers at an early age to be able to retract and re-deploy their testicles at will (done so they don’t get injured during matches.)
See what you can learn reading Ian Fleming?
Well, yes, I get that the point was that the whole episode was a charade (definitely in the double entendre sense of the word, too), but we never actually saw them play.
At first I thought the aliens sounded like Amy Acker. I was disappointed to discover it was a completely different actress.
I enjoyed this episode very much. It was great seeing Spock’s human half explored a little more and the struggle the character has had to endure with being seen as inferior by other Vulcans and how his mother endured much of it for him so he could be accepted by the other Vulcan children when he was a child.
The cg fx were excellent. In my opinion, they are the best looking out of all the new shows and this episode didn’t disappoint with that.
I was surprised by the ending of the episode and while it doesn’t bother me, it does make me wonder what the writers plan to do with it since there was no indication in TOS that Spock and Chapel ever had an intimate relationship. It was clear she was attracted to him, but that was it. But again, it doesn’t bother me.
A really enjoyable episode and second season.
So, his human half involves groping women, taking his rage out on subordinates, and participating in a hen party. Deep exploration, that.
I never said it was a deep exploration of his human side and it was obvious the episode wasn’t meant to be very serious. It was interesting to see what a human Spock could be like.
I will have to give it another watch because I seemed to have missed the part where he groped women.
He’s not responding to you so let’s assume he’s realized he got that wrong Regarding the Spock inappropriate touching charge.
I like the dude but he has a habit of disappearing when you answer one of us posts with information that fully contradicts his point
Good Lord, go take a nap.
You noticed that too, huh?
I enjoyed this episode very much. It was great seeing Spock’s human half explored a little more and the struggle the character has had to endure with being seen as inferior by other Vulcans and how his mother endured much of it for him so he could be accepted by the other Vulcan children when he was a child.
Great point. I loved the exploration of Spock as well. Just a great character ep for Spock!
It’s pretty obvious from all your posts that you love SNW but to say this is great story writing is laughable. The series is ok as a Trek series and a bit cheesy at times ,we have seen so much better episodic Trek than this. I honestly don’t see this as the huge improvement of Discovery that some do here. Feels like the same writers doing a original series fan service show to me.
Dude, that sounds 75% like my review of Picard Season 3 (just substitute TNG for TOS)
To be fair they have already made it clear that nothing in TOS matters anymore. In fact, they KU-ed this show. They showed this is an alternate timeline/reboot. The only thing missing is a showrunner saying so out loud. So they technically are free to do with Spock, Chapel, any of them whatever they want.
That was a good episode… but I’ve had enough of the cute episodes. We know these people can be funny. That’s great. Let’s have some more drama.
I’ve got a feeling the back half of the season will deliver more drama, with the exception of the LD Crossover episode
Don’t forget the musical episode, too; that’s more than a third of what’s remaining.
Well it can be a dramatic musical. ;)
I actually don’t have a problem with going against the grain like that in Trek. The problem I have is the people writing and producing this show have demonstrated they are just not up to the task of making it even mediocre.
It’s been fairly serious the whole season though. Even fish out of water Kirk was servicing a non-comedic storyline. I think they could have balanced this week’s story out better but I wasn’t really opposed to most of the comedy. He wasn’t exactly Jeri Ryan rattling off a dozen personalities or doing a perfect Robert Picardo impression, but I thought Ethan Peck did a very fine job here.
I was think about this earlier. I have yet to see this one, but overall I agree that the show is more serious than last season. But it’s also…I don’t know any other way to characterize it…not as light on its feet. It seems ponderous where it was nimble last year. Maybe that’s due to the longer episodes, who knows? It feels…different.
That may well be a factor.
I feel like everything these days is too long. I am happy for creatives to not be beholden to exact running times now, but hourlong episodes of Ted Lasso? The longest Mission: Impossible and Indiana Jones movies? Across the Spider-Verse being nearly two and a half hours long and still ending in a cliffhanger?
Maybe I’m just less patient now, but there’s something to be said for the creative possibilities a shorter running time can impose, as well as budget restraints. Sometimes more is just more, rather than better.
To true. I know this show is supposed to expore all genres. So lets do that and move on to some other stuff now.
Brilliant episode. Loved every moment of it.
Spock as having teenage urges – charming!
Only one small complaint – when Chapel spoke to the aliens, she should have described her relationship with Spock as professional – sort of on the level of the aliens adhering to the tiny print in a Warranty – and let Uhurah and Ortegas out her if that worked comically.
Cinematically, the Enterprise never felt more lived in than in this episode.
Haha. Your “warranty” comment cracked me up. Yellow and Blue had all the trappings of aliens calling to inquire about the human’s exteneded ship warranty, but then that was hilariously turned around with Christine basically visiting to inquire about extending the response period of their friend’s remediation period!
Great review by Anthony, and pretty much encapsulates my feelings on the episode. Kudos to Ethan Peck and the rest of the main case for making what would have been a disaster of a script into an enjoyable episode. The humor was spot on, imo, great acting across the board from all involved. I got some legitimate chuckles out of the first half. I liked last week’s episode a little better, but will likely be revisiting this one just to enjoy Peck’s performance again.
I caught some shades of how Vulcans acted in ENT during this one, which is not a good look. Nice work on the actress who did a great job being unbearable as T’Pril, complete with the stereotypical henpecked husband, as Anthony mentioned. That trope is so tiresome, worn out and not remotely funny, imo, the gutless husband tagging along, being berated at every turn. And our annoying Ortegas line of the week, ‘Hold onto your butts.’ Ugh.
To me, this episode belongs more as a part of the development of Kelvin Spock, to me. Overall though, a fun romp, nothing new or groundbreaking for certain. One of the best of the first 5 of the season for me. So I guess there will be a little Spock/Chapel romance now. That’s fine, as we ‘big swing’ our way through this alt. timeline. Hoping the second half of the season will “Wow” me, but not expecting much. Cheers.
Wow really glad you enjoyed it so much Danpaine. You seem to be enjoying the show a lot more the last few episodes. I really liked this one too. A lot of fun stuff in it. It wasn’t perfect though, there were definitely some cringy stuff in it and they try a little too hard to make the show contemporary but overall those were minor issues for me.
I was surprised how much I liked this one, because the previews had me thinking I wouldn’t. But yes, the last two have been worth watching for me. Of course the show has its troubles, but not to the point where it’s turning me off (until the musical episode shows up – ha). Considering it a different timeline is helping my appreciation of it greatly.
Aha. ‘Splains a lot.
That’s wrong, her previous Star Trek writing credit was ONE episode of Lower Decks, though she served as a story editor for season 2.
I enjoyed this episode more than I probably should have, and in some ways I think I liked it more than most episodes this season. But part of that may be because I’ve just accepted in my mind that this is no longer the TOS-era timeline. Otherwise, I just can’t rectify most of it anymore. That said, I’m still not a fan of how far they are trying to push the Spock/Chapel relationship, regardless of timeline.
All that said, there’s two things that bugged me with this episode, with one of those issues being a season-long issue that is getting very old:
Just for the purpose of reiterating what others have already said, I’m also not liking the consistent portrayal of stuck-up Vulcans. Between T’Pring, her mother, and the jerk Vulcan prosecutor from “As Astra per Aspera”, it’s becoming pretty annoying to see the continual take on the “we’re better than you mentality”. But I think I wouldn’t mind seeing more Sevet (T’Pring’s Dad) in the future.
I think this type of stuck up Vulcan is in keeping with the period. There are probably only a handful in Starfleet and I’m sure a lot of the older ones would have grown up with those ingrained prejudices against humans and other alien races.
Even if that is the case, there have been few examples to the contrary in the show. T’Pring’s Dad and Spock are the only two I can think of at the moment that haven’t come off as stuck-up. I left out the Vulcan who was considering Christine’s application at the Vulcan Science Academy. He may have actually been the worst of them all so far.
These writers have absolutely no idea how to write for Spock. They do not seem to understand or even respect the character at all. Which is yet another reason why I think they decided to make this show an alternate timeline/reboot. So your thinking this is not the TOS timeline is right in line with that previous episode that essentially explained that this show is it’s own KU kind of thing. Again, I just with the producers would flat out admit it.
Trek is Trek….
Or to put it much better:
Nu-Trek will Nu-Trek
That’s putting it better?! Ok, if you say so….no idea as to what you mean.
What a great ep!!! I am still smiling and will watch it again tomorrow.
I’m right there with you! :)
Same here!
Me too!
“Despite that text, however, I am so tired of this trope” — Another trope that got overused this episode: the ubiquitous shuttle accident. Whether its surrounding Joran Dax or Airiam or Uhura’s family, it seems the only way a person can die a natural death in the future is by piloting or being a passenger on one of these death-traps.
“Buddy Holly Shuttles”
Bopper-class.
It was an enjoyable hour of television. I’m not sure it was great Star Trek, but I still liked it. I cringed through a few of the Spock “teenage” outbursts but did laugh out loud when T’Pring’s mother said that a Vulcan should have better bladder control! I thought the bacon eating was especially out of character, especially when you remember how ashamed Spock was for eating animal flesh in “All Our Yesterdays.” I’m still adjusting to the revelation that this is a different timeline and uncertain what bits of the TOS prime universe are the same and what is different. But as others have said, I do find it easier to enjoy these episodes if I just assume it is a different universe. Overall, I think this episode was better than last week’s but overall I think this show is having a Sophomore Slump. Now that we are half way through the season, I hope the remaining episodes raise the bar.
Wow this exactly where I’m at too. I agree with pretty much everything you just said. We seen to agree on a lot of things here Captain Danno! :)
Thanks Tiger2. I take that as a complement!
LOL, nice!
It’s all different. Don’t waste time trying to reconcile this with TOS. This is reboot in every way except the producers haven’t come out to say it yet.
People write here like the TNG DS9 never had stupid silly funny episodes that had no real impact on the bigger picture or direction of the season. Shows are allowed to have episodes like this and so many of you forget, storytelling isn’t the same as the 90s in which you’re stuck in.
Last season’s “Spock Amok” had better Vulcan hijinks. Last season’s “Serene Squall” had better Vulcan-Human culture clash.
Even though I generally liked this episode, one of my main arguments remain: You only have 10 episodes and this is the best you can do?? TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT and even TOS had episodes to burn. SNW doesn’t. Not saying this episode is awful, but I could still argue that, with only 10 episodes, it could have been better.
It was slightly better than that awful episode last season when Spock and his annoying fiance swapped bodies. That was so bad so not saying much about this one.
I am saying this episode was awful. I’m still debating with myself if it was the worst of the series. There is a LOT of competition for that.
But yeah. They only have 10 episodes and so far, including the 10 from season one they have had but ONE good episode. One.
Definitely is in my book, and I’ll go a step further and say it’s the worst episode of NuTrek we’ve gotten. It’s insulting.
Dude, one of the reasons I love TNG and DS9 was for their stupid silly funny episodes lol. I always love when Trek does comedy. Yeah it doesn’t always land but for me I think it does 90% of the time. This is exactly why I love Lower Decks. I guess I just don’t take Star Trek that seriously compared to others here. I am here for the deep and issue probing stories like Drumhead, Measure of a Man, Far Beyond the Stars, Terra Prime, Past Tense, A Private Little War, The Maquis and on and on.
But I also love A Fist Full of Datas, House of Quark, Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy, Qpid, Bride of Chaotica, In the Cards, A Night in Sickbay (I know I’m in a big minority with this one lol), Menage a Trois and on and on and on. Why Trek is so good is because you can do a big and thought provoking episode one week and then something totally silly and fun the next week. These shows weren’t all just hyper serious stuff every week.
It’s also a big reason why I never truly like Discovery because they never had a single comedic episode to this day and that show takes itself waaaaaaay too seriously. Sure they have comedic moments and characters like Tilly and Jet Reno but never just one fun off the cuff episode. But I guess that’s hard to do when you’re trying to save the galaxy every season.
And it’s why SNW feels like an anti-Discovery show in so many ways because it seems much more comedic and light hearted most of the time than serious or weighty. I do think it can be a little more weightier at times but I do love its light touch more times than not and why its tied with Lower Decks for me.
If only Lower Decks was actually funny, the bleeped swear is so overused. I absolutely love Futurama because it has great comedy writing,unfortunately LD isn’t. I really struggle to watch it, Mariner has to be one of the most annoying characters ever.
All I can say is I laugh nearly every episode. But its obviously not funny for you so I can’t really argue it. Either you laugh or you don’t.
But I also admit I don’t even watch LDS for being a comedy. I just love the stories in general and to see low level crew members doing day to day things and not trying to save the galaxy every season.
I agree. LDX just isn’t funny. It’s far too self aware. The characters act like they themselves are Star Trek fans. And yes, Mariner is just an awful, terrible person. And Boimler is a Trek version of Homer Simpson. The whole thing is just badly done. And that’s really unfortunate because a Trek comedy had so very much potential in the right hands. McMahon seems too scared to poke fun at Trek and thinks references to other shows are the funniest things ever. Opportunity lost. I’m doubting it will ever get tried again.
From my point of view when Trek did comedy it rarely worked. TTWT was a classic. Nothing has ever even come close. Sure, other Treks had comedic moments. But when the episode went light… That was really hard for them to hit. TNG figured it out a little but turning Q into a clown. So his episodes generally were light and he made it fun. And of course there was Worf’s, “Sorry.” Which was hysterical and in a Q episode, too. But that was about it.
I love most of the comedic episodes. The only ones I had trouble with were the Quark ones. But even on my rewatch of the franchise I realize there were more of those I really enjoyed than I remembered.
But yes comedy very subjective, so everyone will feel differently what they is funny or isn’t.
The argument of having fewer episodes is that they are higher quality. With 26 episodes per season there was room for poor quality. With a measly 10 episodes there is no room, and quite frankly this season has been very sub par.
I totally agree, it’s been a hard watch. If this and Starfleet Academy is all the Trek we have in the near future, these are dark times 😔
Well, yes, they did; but they mostly garnered poor reviews (see Tim Lynch or Jammer), and they never make those lists of “essential TNG episodes” today. In other words, they’re quietly put on the back burner, if not outright forgotten.
In the NuTrek era, seasons consist of 10 episodes. “Cost of Living” (in which Lwaxana and Alexander take a mudbath) was one of 26 episodes. Put it, and a few of its ilk, on the back burner, and you still have 20-odd gems to enjoy. In the streaming era, you need a higher hit-to-miss ratio.
To be fair I don’t think TNG had a lot of winners. But also to be fair the vast majority of their episodes weren’t BAD. Like SNW’s are. There were a few really bad ones and also a handful of really really good ones. And a ton of mediocre ones. All were saved by the acting chops of one Patrick Stewart. Who’s charisma made even the bad episodes watchable.
Agreed, but the writers took the characters seriously. If they didnt’ succeed at comedy, they didn’t turn a character into something he wasn’t. In this case, a bumbling, pre-pubescent teen in a 30 year old’s body, who is apparently entirely reliant on alien DNA for his intelligence.
True. The characters stayed within themselves. Even when they were turned into children. When they really had a bit of an excuse to do so. I’m really hoping this writers strike goes on long enough that Secret Hideout gets cut loose from P+. It’s probably a pipe dream but it’s still a hope.
Some do seem to forget that some were also voicing critical opinions about DS9 VOY and ENT at the time. So this is at least a consistent continuation of that pattern.
Dont forget the Federation Aggression in the Delta Quadrant that ignited the Dominion War, Janeways Command Style (like killing Tuvix, and other stuff) that earned her a promotion before Picard, Archers Gazelle Speech. Oh man, the Gazelle Speech. But also Archer killing Tuvix, i mean Sim. Also Archer as a pirate.
While there a cringeworthy Eps in VOY that i cant stand to watch today, like the doctor hiding in 7s Implants, I consider Enterprise the most serious and professional depiction of early human Warp-spacefaring in the Star Trek sense. and in the end, it is actually just TV. As Phlox implied, they had something similar but left it behind as their lifes were more interesting. … I miss Phlox.
I was entertained with this SNW, so was my wife, and she is not into trek. This show has an appeal outside of the purist fan base and that is the key, i think. and that makes it work.
When you only have 10 episodes I think fans have a right to expect better than what we’ve been getting.
One Hundred Percent.
The constant complaints levied against Strange New Worlds show that Discovery did nothing wrong. The problem has always been with an audience that cannot be pleased.
It was the audience that essentially willed this series into existence, but because it’s not chapter and verse what they think a prequel to The Original Series should be they dismiss it as “wrong”, just like they did Discovery.
Consider that a preview of what will likely happen if Paramount+ similarly greenlights Legacy.
Unless that show is chapter and verse what people that will it into existence want it to be, they will dismiss it just like they are Strange New Worlds. The moment it does something they disagree with it, whatever that might be, they’ll do just that.
I for one have been enjoying SNW, just like I did the first season of Discovery before they backtracked to please the people that hated it.
Ironic to think that one point people said that SNW is what DIS should have been all along, only for them to now disparage it for not being what they think it should be.
Agreed. All fans are awful.
Yes, all fans are awful, terribly awful; in fact, terribly, horribly awful — most especially those of us who found fault in Discovery. We should be thoroughly ashamed of ourselves.
You have summed it up PERFECTLY.
Thanks.
Everyone has an opinion, and opinions on SNW vary greatly. Some people love it, some people hate it, but I see a lot of in-between. Accusing the entire fanbase of being against the show because they “didn’t get what they want” is looking at this from a very skewed point of view.
That said, I will still make the argument that, with only 10 episodes, they should be some of the best episodes of Star Trek we can expect. I personally liked this one, but by no means do I feel like season two as a whole is hitting on all-cylinders. Sure, that’s my opinion, but I do think the general consensus is that not all five of the episodes so far are the best Trek can offer.
Can’t really argue with this point. Between P+’s financial troubles, the WGA strike, and now SAG hitting the picket lines, this may be what pulls the plug on Streaming Trek. The irony being that for those who were screaming that current Trek is an abomination and needs to go away, now that it may be gone, they’ll be demanding more Trek.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens with SNW, now that: a) SAG/AFTRA is on strike and, b) the AMPTP is reportedly willing to let the WGA strike go on as long as it takes to “break” the union. If production starts again, it will be no early than fall if that reporting is accurate. And given Paramount Global’s money woes, I can certainly see them canceling it and scrubbing it from the site. Don’t think that’s a distinct possibility, but it is a possibility.
Star Trek will live on in the animated shows. Heck, I think they’re more popular than the live action ones anyway.
The actors are on strike now, so that shuts down the animated work.
Thank you. I should’ve been clearer: “If the strike kills Strange New Worlds, I suspect Star Trek will live on in animated form. AFTER the strike, Star Trek will still have value as a brand and as Lower Decks has shown, there’s a young, voracious, almost Disney-level obsessive fandom for animated Trek that should allow the IP to continue to be profitable for the studio (or whatever entity winds up buying Paramount or its parts) and a cartoon studio licensee.”
Trek has been a profitable IP for Paramount for decades now. Someone, somewhere will pick it up and run with it it Paramount finds itself needing to sell it.
I think voice actors are a different union. But I’m not positive of that.
Also, Prodigy was the only half way decent Trek out there. And it’s gone. So….
Paramount+ didn’t find one of them more popular. 😢 (sadface)
Bob Iger was commenting on Hollywood’s labor woes this morning, a few things he said struck me that he was saying the silent part out loud. If management now has union busting as a primary goal, that will be a disaster for the industry. Entertainment will be looking a helluva lot different a couple years from now. A lot of small companies are going to get crushed in all this.
I won’t be. At least not if the only Trek we get will be made by SH.
The fans saw Mount’s portrayal of Pike and felt that would be far more interesting than anything done on Star Trek Discovery. Can’t blame the fans for that. But what the fans didn’t seem to consider was the Pike centered show would be produced by the same production company that made Star Trek Discovery to begin with. So essentially they wanted a Pike show but NOT one made by people who consistently make awful Trek. If Legacy get’s green lighted if it, too, is made by Secret Hideout fans will likely react the same way. So essentially what we need is for Secret Hideout to stop making Trek. Get a different person/production company in and let them run with it. It certainly can’t be worse….
But, dude, the same issue will keep coming up until they hire someone that makes Trek the way these people that cannot be satisfied want it to be made. That’s not happening, ever. That old style Trek is gone.
It’s like if someone watched the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh seasons of The Next Generation and denounced it as “awful Trek” because they weren’t like The Original Series.
To please that person, TNG would need to be made like the first two seasons, which were considerably derivative in style and tone to TOS.
The same is happening now, with people demanding that current Trek be made in the style of ’90s Trek. That’s not happening.
I saw every season of TNG to be a derivative of TOS style. That never changed until DS9 came along. Which was very different and a show that worked very well.
I don’t think we have enough of a sample size to make that determination considering the only nu-Trek we’ve been getting has been made by people who have produced mediocre Trek at best and mostly garbage Trek. I think if Trek were made by more competent writers more fans would be happy with the results.
Nah, Trek stopped being derivative of TOS half-way through the third season of TNG.
And “nu-Trek” hasn’t been mediocre in the least. It just hasn’t been a rehash of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, or ENT.
I will give you that it wasn’t exact. They quite often went with A & B stories. That’s about it. Everything else could have been a TOS episode.
Any no. Nu-Trek has been mediocre at best. It hasn’t been a rehash classic or Berman Trek but that doesn’t mean it must be good. In fact, it’s been far far worse.
Not really. It’s actually been quite good. Discovery was just not an ensemble show like TNG, DS9, and VOY, or focused on a trinity like TOS and ENT. Instead, it was focused on a singular lead. That doesn’t mean it was mediocre.
And before you say that what made it mediocre were the stories, that is not what people complained about. What they complained about WAS the focus on a solo lead, the tone, and the lack of censorship, the latter of which allowed Tilly to curse (something that didn’t bother anyone when Bones did it in Trek III, Kirk did it in Trek IV, and Data did it in Generations).
It wasn’t until it was done on a “TV” series that people got in a huff over it. “STAR TREK WOULD NEVER DO THAT!”
Fact is that Star Trek HAS done that.
The most mediocre Star Trek ever made were the first two season of TNG.
Star Trek Discovery wasn’t bad because they focused on one character. It was bad because not only was that one character badly conceived and written the entire show was. The entire concept just didn’t work. Ultimately they knew it which was why they went with the time change. But that didn’t solve the underlying problems. The cursing complaint really wasn’t about the cursing. It was a symptom of the terrible writing. As you said, there has been lighter cursing in Trek before and it didn’t generate that kind of response.
The most mediocre Trek was pretty much the bulk of all 7 seasons of TNG. The worst Trek has has pretty much come from Secret Hideout nearly exclusively.
People hate Discovery starting with the first episode, so you cannot say that they dismissed it based on the quality of the show as a whole.
There was nothing ill-conceived about it in the least. Conceptually, it took a lot of ideas from Singer’s Federation pitch, such as making it about a member of the crew that wasn’t the captain and tracking their ascendancy to the rank (in that series it would have been Kirk’s descendant, whereas here it was Spock’s adopted sister).
At its worst, Secret Hideout’s Trek is still better than the first two seasons of TNG. As for the latter five, there were not mediocre in the least. They’re what made Trek the franchise it became.
The only thing gleaned from the first episode was the look and feel of the show. Which didn’t go over well. People didn’t make up their minds on the writing for sure until a few episodes in when it was made painfully clear it was gawdawful.
And again, the problem wasn’t a character’s rise in Star Fleet. The problem was HOW it was done. This is symptomatic of all of Secret Hideout Trek. The general concepts are sound. A character’s rise in Star Fleet. Different shows feature different genres. Etc. Even Short Treks were a good idea. The problem is the people they hire to make them are, to put it simply, bad writers. They don’t seem to have a clue how to write good drama, let alone good Sci-fi or good Trek.
There is no way Secret Hideout Trek could be seen as better than any of TNG’s seasons. And yes, while TNG did have their share of crap episodes they did counter that with a number of excellent ones. But the bulk of them were indeed rather pedestrian. Made watchable due to the charismatic acting chops of one Patrick Stewart. Which is also something nu-Trek never had. A high quality actor to make weak episodes watchable.
And it was TOS that made Trek what it is.
TOS was cancelled after three seasons. TNG created the Star Trek franchise.
True, it was canceled after 3. But it was EXTREMELY popular in reruns. Actually it was popular when it aired it’s just that the demographics weren’t what executives were shooting for at the time. There were conventions. Books. Even an animated series. TOS was the genesis for everything.
I think the PIke on this show is nowhere near as interesting or as plausible of being a great Captain. he has moments, but the writers treated him entirely differently on Disco. I think about the dressing down he did of Saru as the best example of how he was a great Captain. From and unyielding, but fair. Here, he’s just everyone’s buddy.
Interesting observation. I honestly don’t recall much from S1 at this point it was so long ago but this season he has been so very absent that I’m unsure about that. But it does feel like a legitimate criticism.
I liked the episode, especially Spock/Chapel. But the aliens were underdeveloped. My theory is that they are time traveling Vulcans on a mission to their own planet’s past, who were stuck in an ancient period and over the ages evolved into incorporeal beings.
But why in a sci-fi show should you be left having to guess the backstory of an alien species who plays a primary role in the plot? Better yet, why does the exploration of the new species along with the efforts to help out an injured (in a sense) crew member stop simply because the alien species says that no further communication is necessary? It’s like Pike decides that “welp, I guess that’s that” even though they stay in orbit and have plenty of time to try and gather more info. Instead, we get a crazy, last-minute, mostly unplanned mission to attempt to contact the aliens again after how long sitting there doing nothing?
Now, now, Pike wasn’t doing nothing. He had a banquet to prepare.
My mistake. That’s very true! And, on some level, I honestly think that SNW Pike would NEVER turn down a chance to practice his culinary skills.
First use of the exact term (and possibly copyrighted?) “Ancient Aliens” in Trek’s history? Here’s hoping we get a walk-on from Giorgio Tsoukalos at some point.
I had a great time watching this episode. I was surprised how many moments were laugh out loud too. My opinion, loved it.
Same
It doesn’t get any better than this!
Yep!
“Spock is such a Miranda.”
Valaris might have something to say about that. HAHAHAHAH. Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. Carry on.
For me It DID pay off and it WAS satisfying. I liked a lot about this episode. So much that I didn’t care about the nitpicks mentioned in this analysis. They might be valid points, but that was not this episode.
After the last 2 episodes, that I really didn’t care for, this one was a relief. I loved the humor, especially from Anson Mount (his side-eye is amazing!), and I loved the fact the episode was both lighthearted and heavy.
What I also really liked was that it involved the entire cast, and that everybody felt essential. A thing that always solidifies SNW as an ensemble show. Something I was missing from Discovery.
The guest stars were a treat as well. Great to see Amanda again, as well as T’Pring and her family (poor dad). The episode was pretty long again, but this time it worked. The story was involved enough to warrent it (minus maybe a minute or 2).
Score: 7.8/10
PS: I’m finding I gradually care less and less about what TOS parts of canon they do and don’t break. Maybe because I didn’t grow up with it, but it’s been ages really since they made it.
It doesn’t matter anymore. Gotta keep reminding people of that episode 2 weeks ago that made this show a KU-like new timeline/reboot. So no worries about it ever lining up with TOS Trek ever again. They can keep Pike alive. Kill Chapel, add a Horta crew member…. None of it matters anymore.
Anson Mount’s reaction shots had me laughing out loud- what a great foil for a room of serious people.
I was expecting Sevet to be our second asylum-seeker this season. Poor guy just wants noms and to be friends with Sarek. Too bad he married a potential Tal Shiar spy.
I also enjoyed Uhura and Ortegas groaning at Chapel for being so pent up about her feelings towards Spock.
And as for the Customer Service Dimension, as McCoy said “The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe.” Now that law applies to other universes!
I don’t know why, but I LOL when he snapped his fingers to Sevet to bring out more food.
I feel sorry for Sevet as well married to that wrench. We also know why T’Pring turned down Spock in Amok Time. Her mom was probably in her night and day to pick Stonn. ;)
Great Point!
“I was expecting Sevet to be our second asylum-seeker this season. Poor guy just wants noms and to be friends with Sarek. Too bad he married a potential Tal Shiar spy.”
This comment made me laugh! Love it! :)
LET’S GOOOOO!!!
That episode was SO enjoyable! Funny, touching, emotional, entertaining, well written, directed and acted.
To the cast and crew of SNW: *THANK YOU* for the gifts of all you do.
Keep up the great work!!!!
This is the worst episode of Trek, post 2005, and maybe since TOS. Spock should not be a joke, and that’s exactly what this writing staff is doing with him. It’s sad. Bottom tier Fan Fiction is better than this.
I watched Into Darkness the other day, man, Quinto’s Spock is so good and miles better than SNW Spock, shame.
The thing was, this entire cast auditioned in DISCO season 2 as a serious cast — that’s what sold people on the idea of a Pike series.
Now that they’re intent on turning much of it into light comedy, it’s a completely different proposition. I liked Ethan Peck on Discovery. Has he even gotten a serious character development episode, on that doesn’t involve T’Pring and Chapel, on SNW?
Agree the actor is not the problem. It’s how he’s written. I just cannot believe that Alonso-Meyer’s and Goldsman are Star Trek fans from the early days, because they have no understanding of Spock as a character. Canonical issues aside, I don’t believe this is the same character. I watched the after show and listened to the two show runners talk about their love of Trek, and espousing about what they have done. I’ve been annoyed by their take on classic Trek before.. this was downright insulting to anyone that’s a fan of the original.
Dude how many times do I have to tell you to go back and watch The Cage so that you will understand Spock’s lack of maturity and emotional state at this period of his life.
The showrunners understand this — it’s you who have not done your homework.
I don’t recall you telling me anything, but to that I would just ask… so a single smile before the creatives even decided that Spock was to be emotionless suddenly means that he should become this series’ laughing stock? Losing his Vulcan DNA means he lost his memory of what it is to be Vulcan and intelligence? Did his development from Disco and SNW S1 also get thrown out the window?
He laughs and behaves emotionally throughout that ep. And with The Menagerie, the TOS more mature Spock actually watches his younger immature version at the Court Martial — with Kirk and his crew members also watching — so The Menagerie ep doubles-down that the Pike-era Spock was much less mature and more emotional. He was not the “final product” Spock that we saw in TOS.
It’s all fully consistent, and they are getting it right in SNW. As for DSC, he was freakishly violent in some of that, so that’s part of it too.
PS: I was mistaken, and it was not you who I have repeated this to several times. Sorry!
With all the canonical liberties taken by this series, that would have been an easy one to overlook. I just don’t buy into that a single smile from the first Trek episode ever means they have to slow build to him becoming the Spock we know from TOS. I don’t buy that Spock is this far into his adulthood and unable to control himself.
Yes. Exactly. No one knew what Spock was in The Cage. To base their entire thinking of the character based on one moment from before he was ever fully formed is just downright ridiculous.
And I was thinking the same thing. He still had his memories. He still knew what it was like to BE Vulcan. At worst he would have a little more difficulty keeping the emotions buried. He certainly wouldn’t go full on rebellious teen on us.
To see him subtly struggle would have been much more effective and in line with the character. I just don’t believe Spock is this reliant on his DNA for his intelligence.
Agreed. I do not understand how the people you mention can claim to be such big fans but to not understand the Spock character in any way.
At least they have at least made a full episode telling us this show is an alternate timeline/reboot. But even rebooted Spock is being treated badly.
Yeah. Even as a rebooted character they are really treating him badly. I’m not liking it at all.
Truth. To me, the issues here have nothing to do with Canon, and everything to do with a gross and awful misunderstanding of the character. It’s embarrassingly bad to watch Goldsman and Alonso-Meyer’s drone on about how much they love the character on the Ready Room, and give us a complete reinterpretation of that character.
I’ve only ever seen one episode of the Ready Room. The gushing over every episode and mutual back slapping made me nauseous. Never tuned in again. If that is really what they are saying then either these people are the most out of touch producers ever or they are among the biggest liars in the industry. I honestly do not see how it is possible to claim one loves and understands TOS and then make THIS as your prequel series. There is nothing but disrespect for TOS here. To me this show’s message is “TOS is old, outdated, looks bad and has terrible characters. Our show ‘fixes’ all that.”
I really liked this one! Not perfect and definitely had a few issues but really fun overall. I didn’t like it on the level of Spock Amok but this is probably my second favorite episode of the season. I liked all the Vulcan stuff happening while Spock came off as one of the most emotional humans ever lol. And it was great to have Amanda back and hope we see her again. I always liked her on Discovery as well.
But it’s clearly a divisive episode and not hard to understand why. And I’m not really interested in the CW love triangle they have going on with Spock, T’Pring and Chapel but we knew it was coming. Now that it’s here, it’s like kid Khan to me, whatever I’ll roll with it, but I think they need to just make it clear the show is operating in a different timeline. It obviously is now since Spock and Christine never had a romance among many many other things SNW is tossing in. But this development seems really popular for others who probably never watched or cared about TOS, so YMMV.
But overall it was fun, nothing amazing but good. This season feels a lot more up and down as a whole and not nearly as good as Picard season 3 for me so far, but it’s light and fun and I think for many that’s enough.
Once again, thanks Tiger2! All I needed to read was your first sentence, now I am all set to watch…. in about 60 mins time!
Btw, while waiting I was just watching an old Voyager episode and Neelix describes Tom Paris as ” our ship’s pilot”! That is the first time I remember Berman Trek using that term…. just like SNW!
No worries DeanH, can’t wait to hear your thoughts on it.
And actually the word pilot was used quite a bit on Voyager. Paris called himself that all the time. Dude the first scene of the show, the FIRST scene when Janeway is recruiting Paris out of prison, he says the word pilot.
Paris: “Observer? Oh hell, I’m the best pilot you can have.”
And one of my favorite reverse lines is also used by Paris: “I’m a pilot Harry, not a doctor.”
There are plenty more examples.
I mean, so what’s the problem?? Now you know I’m always fair, maybe some fans hated when VOY did it too, I have no idea or memory about it though. But stuff like this is a big shrug to me like everyone getting on Pike’s case for calling Ortegas Erica although its been done by a Captain in every freaking show.
You know I’m not an apologist for any of these shows. When I think they suck, I say so loudly. But one guy here keeps saying know your Star Trek and in this case he’s right. So stuff like this are either people not remembering the classic shows enough or just being hypocrites about it.
Yup, more than a little embarrassed to admit that Voyager is my least watched live-action legacy Trek series, so that is why I missed or forgot all the Paris pilot references.
Will post my overall thoughts RE E5 below, but agree that last night’s episode was good bordering on very good. My third favorite of the season so far. Have to agree RE Spock Chapel relationship. That last scene was not needed, in fact it would have been a much better episode without it.
Here is one reason – I actually liked the Spock T’Pring dynamic from last season and through much of last night’s episode. I thought that Peck and Sandhu really did a great job, so much so I was actually pulling for them to be a couple, even though it would have completely blown up cannon.
Of course the writers decided to stick with the TOS storyline on this one so the Spock T’Pring relationship never had a chance to succeed. As they say – it was fate.
So happy you watched and liked it. We seem to agree on most and that’s it’s good but not amazing. And yeah I could’ve done without the last scene, but ironically this entire episode was probably made just for the final scene alone. I suspect every episode going forward this season will involve their relationship in some way now.
And I really like T’Pring as well but we knew that was going to have major conflict to eventually set up Amok Time; but I don’t think Chapel had to be part of that since she ironically wasn’t even close to a factor in TOS. Oh well.
As for Voyager, it was very common to say pilot although they said helm or helmsman as well, they just went back and forth on it. And I admit, I never noticed or cared until this was pointed out in SNW. Sure I am stickler for things like others, but mostly when it comes to story continuity and not tiny stuff like this which, as proven, has been done on other shows with little to no issue for some reason. But I guess with SNW, it’s a bigger issue at hand for some and think the show is too relaxed on protocols and command structure compared to the other shows.
Haha, I watched Endgame this morning… Dr “Joe” introduced his wife to “Voyager’s pilot” Tom Paris. So much for the naysayers not liking the word pilot.
Btw, now I know what you mean about the problem with prequels. Even though I liked the T’Pring Spock chemistry, it was never written so their relationship was always doomed to fail. Too bad because this would have been another cannon violation I would have gladly accepted. But I guess that was a bridge too far!
Being hung up on pilot was always silly even if there was no proof others did it. But now it makes even less sense. Some people just want to nit pick everything.
And I would’ve had no issue if they change things up either, especially since they already are. But they will probably keep with the broad strokes I imagine and that they will still end up a doomed couple.
What a WONDERFUL and heartwarming episode: funny, touching, witty. And what a likeable cast!!! Just yesterday I watched a Discovery episode. And while I certainly like Discovery, the direct comparison made me realize once again how extremely hyper-neurotic Discovery’s crew is. And Strange New Worlds shows that there is another way.
I genuinely can’t believe how bad the Discovery crew are.
I’m sorry. Not the crew. Or the actors. It was all the writers and the creative team.
I disagree. I mean yes obviously the writers are bad, but the casting on that show is somehow even worse.
I have mixed feelings about this one. I understand that it’s a comedy episode, so things are intentionally silly and overdone, and I understand that an episode that’s played for laughs often makes the characters behave in ways that they wouldn’t actually behave. That’s all par for the course in a comedy episode.
So although I think if Spock’s Vulcan DNA were actually removed, he’d behave the way he always does, because his memory wasn’t removed. He’s been practicing his control all of his life, and removing his Vulcan genes wouldn’t remove it. But I’m willing to go with the absurd premise for the sake of comedy.
I thought the episode did some wonderful things with the absurd setup. Star Trek often shows us how evil prejudice is, but it’s a message I never tire of, because it’s so very important. It was heart-warming to see Spock claim his humanity and extol his mother’s virtues. Amanda was clearly a better person than either of T’Pring’s parents, and it was wonderful to see him realize that and to celebrate her to her face.
I’m unhappy, though, that BOTH this season’s Spock focus episode AND last season’s Spock focus episode were comedies. It’s fine of have one of them be a comedy — Ethan Peck does comedy very well — but can’t we have a serious Spock focus episode? One that delves into his character a little more than is possible during an absurd episode? I don’t want to see this character become SNW’s Neelix. Spock is important to a great many of us; please write him a serious focus episode for Season 3.
I agree. I think they are taking advantage of the fact that during this time, during The Cage, Spock was all smiles. After TOS, this window will be pretty much closed or limited.
I have no doubt serious Spock episodes will come, at some point, hopefully soon.
So far, I really like all SNW episodes, all episodes since episode 1.
But he WASN’T all smiles; he smiled ONCE! Agreed that it was a memorable smile, but really, they’re running awfully far with that one smile…
Like I said, they are talking advantage of the one big smile! :D
That’s not completely true. He smiled a few more times after The Cage as well. His first scene in WNMHGB the guy smiled.
It was fine-tuning a new character. We might as well have a whole series about why Worf was a tenor in “Encounter at Farpoint” and a deep baritone everafter. Like Klingon ridges, it’s just not something that needed explanation.
Exactly! Spock smiled in the beginning because the production team hadn’t figured out Vulcans yet, not because he was supposed to have been different then.
I don’t disagree with your points, but regardless it’s still canon, correct? So there isn’t much people can say other than they wish they didn’t do it. And clearly they disagree.
If you saw Goldsman on the latest Ready Room episode, he points out the Cage specifically that says helped influence this episode.
That’s the problem. They’re relying on one hour of a failed pilot as something that is completely fixed, and yet they take such extreme liberties with the more developed episodes. I cannot fathom, why they are treating this as such an absolute for the character.
Again, I don’t disagree with this and why I would just avoid prequels altogether and you would have none of this. But AGAIN, we already saw this with Discovery, so people can’t be shocked they would just continue it from there although ironically Spock came off more like Spock on Discovery to me, so go figure?
We never saw such Spock portrayed in such a way on Discovery. It’s not shocking to see this, but it’s maddening and sad. This is not Spock.
I’m not talking about this specific episode which is obviously an extenuating circumstance, just Spock showing more emotions in general on the show like when he laughed in Children of the Comet or became angry in the Gorn episode.
But if you didn’t like those examples too, OK, but those were the type of stuff we saw him in do in Discovery as well.
I get that, he STILL SMILED regardless. So that gives them the room to do what they want.
And I was the guy who pointed out this issue back in Discovery season 2 that they don’t have to follow the Cage because it was a different character at the time and all off that. Well they did it anyway and this was four years ago already. You can’t be shocked about it now right?
It’s just a little too late to be upset about it now.
Not too late when they continue to reference and talk about it. It’s a continued, fundamental misunderstanding of the character.
Well it’s too late in terms of the season being shot. That’s what I mean, the damage has been done. But they can pull back on it later obviously and they probably will. Oh who am I kidding, they will probably just ramp it up more lol.
You weren’t the only one; I pointed out, too. As soon as Roddenberry decided in the second pilot to give Spock the “suppresses emotion” characteristic that Number One had in the first pilot, that became who Spock’s character had always been.
It’s weird that the showrunners insist that Spock has this emotional development based on “The Cage,” but they DON’T insist that NUMBER ONE suppress her emotions, just because SHE did so in “The Cage.” They shouldn’t be allowed to have it both ways!
I think they just want to add their own stamp on things. That’s always been the problem with writers when they adapt someone else’s work, they want to add something to the conversation or go a different direction that the book, movie or show they are working with never went in and Spock is a prime candidate being so iconic and known. He’s really the only truly KNOWN character on that show right now when you think about it because all the others, including TOS characters like Uhura and Chapel had very little development on the original show.
But with Spock we already know everything there is to know and I guess for them they have to prove there is in fact more there that we don’t know and why he’s now in a love triangle with Chapel and treat him like he’s in the fifth grade or something.
And it is ironic that Una has one of the biggest personalities on the show when in the Cage she came off like a robot. But again, this is probably about doing something very different with the character like with Pike himself. In the Cage, neither of these people had much of a personality and now they both are very social and basically the life of the party…or Pike’s big dinners.
They did give Una the nickname where fun goes to die but the irony is she actually is a lot of fun lol.
Well… They fixed that a couple of weeks ago when they decided to KU this show to be it’s own unique timeline/reboot. So they are now free to do whatever they want. They can even kill Kirk and it wouldn’t matter one teeny tiny bit anymore. I just wish someone highly placed at the show would just come out and say so blatantly.
I agree obviously. But you know how these things go. Until someone just comes out and says the show is acting in its own separate timeline, this will be debated about ad nauseam regardless.
The KU is literally the perfect example since they in fact said it in the open it’s a completely separate timeline and yet you still had people on this very board arguing that it wasn’t and that it had overwritten the prime timeline even though Discovery made it absolutely clear that wasn’t the case. Of course I would like to think everyone finally understands it didn’t with all the new shows on now and that prime timeline canon is still very much what we saw by the time Voyager ended, but you never know lol.
I never understood why some were so upset with the KU situation. It’s really just a different way to create a reboot. In the end, those films were just Trek reboots. And that is what SNW is. And to me, by extension, all the SH produced shows are. All their shows are in their own plane of existence. That’s been pretty obvious for a while now. All the remains is for some SH official to confirm it. But I don’t think they ever will. Mainly because of their own “sheer effing hubris”.
This. The Cage really wasn’t canonical, either. Parts of it were used in the Menagerie, and those parts are, but the rest of it wasn’t. Yeah, Spock smiled. But the notion that his one time reaction has to be extrapolated upon as a slow burn towards him in TOS a few years later… it’s assinine.
And that smile came before anyone knew what Spock was all about. Even Nimoy didn’t know. He even said the reason he smiled was only because the director told him to. It’s pure lunacy to use that moment as your basic Spock blueprint for the character at that point in time.
Well, yes, but that’s because both of T’Pring’s parents, especially her mother, were set up a straw men (er, straw Vulcans).
Lwaxana had some “evil mother in law vibes” here and there, particularly in her debut episode, but at least she had some redeeming, endearing qualities. She wasn’t a harridan.
“SNW’s Neelix” is a great way of putting it.
Agreed. They’ve turned him into an idiot, and it’s insulting to the character, and to the audience.
It’s bad to do that to any Star Trek character, but to do that to SPOCK is unconscionable.
Absolutely!
Spock was half human to begin with. He would have had a far better grasp on controlling his emotions than this episode showed.
And I wouldn’t expect any kind of deep dive into any of the characters. The writers on this show just aren’t capable of it.
Exactly! Spock’s DNA has nothing to do with his abilities. Those were built over time. To me, Spock would struggle silently, but he would have been able to get through it. I also think he would have been up front about what happened from the get go, but then they don’t have an episode. This episode is like the most banal kind of fan fiction, and feels like it was written by a 13 year old.
Yes. My understanding of the Spock character is that he might struggle a little more. He would certainly have informed T’Pring. Would not have tried to fool is mother. And there would have been a really good opportunity for his loyalty to Pike to come out in some scene with the two. But no… The writers would rather see Spock made the clown because it’s easier than emotional depth to them.
Have to disagree, for the tone of the episode, this one will probably stand the test of time. This season continues to be a winner for me, and improves on last one.
Hey, and no big fight scene, though the irritating potential PITA Vulcan MIL seemed up for one….
I am very surprised for all the negative criticism. It was a great episode. I truly enjoyed the humor. It is light, refreshing to watch these dynamics between the main cast and special guests.
I agree. If you check the imdb score, it’s rated pretty high (8.4 as this writing). I don’t think this thread represents the true consensus for this episode
Especially after watching several seasons of trauma, tension, stress (Discovery and Picard.) It is nice to watch these type of dynamics.
Some nice moments, a great performance by Ethan Peck who doesn’t receive enough praise for his portrayal of the younger version of the Spock we grew up on, but definitely one of the lesser episodes of SNW. I don’t think I could have tolerated Carol Kane in this episode. Pelia is over the top on her own and this episode was badly in need of a bit of grounding. With the Lower Decks episode still to come I hope that’s it for comedic episodes. I give this episode a C.
Really seemed like a pastiche of a warmed-over Data story, Deja Q, and Horny Teenage Spock from Star Trek III. And I don’t see how they get Spock and Chapel to where they are at the beginning of TOS without Spock being a huge jerk. Also, this show has some of the worst Vulcan characters in Trek. They simply don’t understand Vulcans. Just because something worked in Lower Decks that doesn’t mean it works in another context.
I will agree the horny teen stuff seemed a little too much, I could’ve done without that too. And I also agree they go a too bit overboard with the Vulcans. They shouldn’t all be assholes.
As far as Spock and Chapel, it doesn’t even remotely align with TOS lol. Not even a little bit. In TOS Chapel had feelings for Spock but never other way around. And Spock was still engaged to T’Pring which Chapel knew nothing about. Add to that Chapel was already in a relationship with Korby before she joined the Enterprise. On this show, she hasn’t even met the guy yet.
This show is obviously working in a different timeline because none of it remotely makes sense.
I view it as an alternate timeline created by the Temporal Cold War. I enjoy the series a lot more because in my head, it won’t change the characters I love from TOS or its history.
I loved the episode. I’m hoping the writers will get the Spock-Chapel relationship out of their system and conclude it quickly so we can get back to the final frontier. I also hope in the last half of the season we can move back to the tone of S1.
That’s not head canon anymore. They flat out said so two weeks ago. The only thing missing is for someone involved in the production to come out and admit it.
This is a KU like reboot.
I’ve considered the show a reboot from the very start and even having that in mind going into each episode, seldom does the plot of a given episode remotely make sense. But the uncritical love for this show has compelled me to get my brain checked, because I’m clearly watching or perceiving the show wrong.
No, I think you are seeing it correctly. Even if the producers flat out admitted this was the reboot it is and it lives independently from TOS and the others just on it’s own merits its awful.
All I gotta say is that my non-Trekkie wife liked it.😊😊
I’m actually enjoying this season better than the first . And so is my GF. I personally have liked the writing this season. The actors also seem more comfortable with their roles. This particular episode I thought was strong. Some will disagreeand and thats fine. Imdb score is also pretty high for this episodes so obviously I’m not alone
Spock ringing Chapel’s bell (get it? Cuz she’s a chapel)? Okay. I didn’t see that coming given that TOS Chapel always seemed so thirsty over Spock, who behaved like he could have care less. Perfect example of this was during “Amok Time,” when she brought him some soup and he went apesh*t on her. Also Kirk and McCoy would take perverse pleasure in seeing her pine over Spock.
Overall, the episode was an improvement over last week’s horrible episode. It was also nice seeing Mia Kirshner back as Amanda.
This was the best episode. The scenes between Spock and Amanda were amazing as Spock finally learned just how hard his mom worked for her family. Several off the early books tell pieces of Amanda’s story, and it’s nice to her onscreen as a woman who you do not mess with.I like how Pike stepped in as the father figure, making sure the dinner was a success. Ethan did a great job playing both human and Vulcan. But the best part was badass Christine Chapel. This lady was the heroine of the hour, not only accepting Spock but fighting for him to exist. And having Uhura and Ortega as her team was fun to watch. Some people like the reviewer may want to write this off as rom-com because there was kissing and cranky in-laws. But this was a show about family and how we support each other, even when we are troubled. It’s about embracing differences. I love T’Pring but I never forget she will become the woman who almost forces Spock to kill Kirk to end an engagement – an engagement that we now know her family didn’t want in the first place. T’Pring can take care of herself.
I’m guessing that at some point in this season or next season, Spock is going to choose to ditch Chapel and go back to T’Pring to fulfill his Vulcan obligations. Chapel will be sad and will go off to study archeological medicine where she will become engaged to Korby.
She doesn’t need to. This is all a brand new universe.
Well I liked it, even though it’s very early to be retreading similar ground as Spock Amok. I like the lighthearted episodes of Trek and we need them for balance. Disco is very serious and Lower Decks is a flat out comedy, so SNW weaving between the two feels right.
The cast is very charming, Peck did very well modulating being a human acting trying to act like a Vulcan. I’m rusty on my Nurse Chapel in TOS but I don’t recall seeing anything that quite jibes with where this episode takes them. But honestly my bigger concern is down to how Trek’s track record with romance is fairly dire. While the shows occasionally managed some stellar one-off love affairs, the majority of long-term pairings haven’t rung true at all.
Apparently 40 Eridani B is a white dwarf, so an extremely old star that no longer performs nuclear fusion. Not surprising that the intelligent inhabitants of that system decided to go elsewhere.
I’m enough of a geek to know that this episode borrows from the fan fiction stories “Ni Var” and “The Procrustean Petard,” both published in short story collection in the mid-1970’s.
Great episode! Loved learning more about Vulcan culture 🖖
I don’t know. Why are they wasting time making episodes like this? And soon the musical one and then the cartoony one. It’s not the Star Trek I wanted from this and a disappointment after season 1. Am I the only one who watches it more out of obligation than pleasure now?
No, you’re not the only one. I really wish it was ‘must see’ tv for me, but it isn’t.
Not to the point of obligation, but I honestly don’t even anticipate it each week. Sometime on Wednesday night or Thursday morning I remember with the thought, “that’s right, I’ll have something to watch tomorrow”.
I’ve never watched Star Trek with the expectation that every episode must be made with the lofty intentions and highest standards of an Inner Light, The Visitor or The City on the Edge of Forever. Star Trek has always been about telling eclectic stories, so I appreciate the attempt to do variety here even with a reduced episode count. Taking the season in as a whole, I think such stories provide balance. We have subsisted well enough for years on a diet of baseline anomalies and trite allegories of the week and the lighter fare, supplemented by the occasional stone cold classics (most of which are pretty serious affairs).
You may not be doing this, but I’ve noticed a number of fans have treated overtly comedic episodes with some derision over the years. Sometimes it’s felt like if there’s not a Tribble or Q involved, any Trek episode that’s light-hearted is in danger of being dismissed as lesser than. I think that’s a real disservice to the people who work to make it – good comedy is incredibly hard to pull off and even more subjective than good drama. It’s never rewarded on the same level as serious narrative and yet making someone laugh is as meaningful a reaction as making someone sad, while being much more difficult to achieve.
When people ask me what the best episode of Voyager is, I will always champion Someone to Watch Over Me. Making romantic comedy work is a huge challenge, but Voyager of all shows did it with flying colors.
I’ll say this in case you’re misreading Imdb credits going forward. Lyn’s previous Trek writing credit was for ONE episode of Lower Decks, wej Duj. The ten writing credits listed on Imdb are for serving as a story editor on the ten episodes of season 2. She says she also served as Lower Decks “canon consultant.”
I really enjoyed the broad comedy in the episode and Ethan was magnetic as ever. But this episode really does no favours for Spock. He doesn’t trust his fiancée to the point where she decides they need a break- and he responds by immediately kissing/sleeping with somebody else. It’s totally at odds with the Spock that we know and love.
More broadly, speaking on SNW as a whole, I really don’t like that we only get to see Chapel in the context of her relationship to Spock. Even her arc in the “The Broken Circle” was in service to the idea that Spock has feelings for her. It’s 2023 and it’s about time she becomes a fully rounded character and not just defined by her attraction to a man! We *hear* about her experiences in The Klingon War and we see *brief* glimpses of her being a physician- but it’s enough. There is more to Christine Chapel but the writers and producers seem to be content with making her a tragic romantic heroine who is just going to end up pining for Spock.
Overall a fun and entertaining episode, probably the third best of the five. I would give this one a 7.5 or higher, mostly because of Ethan Peck’s stellar performance. Both as the usual Spock in the first part of the show, then switching to being human in the rest of the episode. Laughing at jokes and eating and enjoying the smell and taste of bacon were just some of the classic scenes. I laughed out loud when M’Benga, Pike and Spock are in sickbay and after being told to get back his sea legs, Spock responds with a wry smile, “Aye Aye Captain!” and M’Benga sadly shakes his head in dismay.
That said, for whatever reason I am not a huge fan of the Chapel Spock overt relationship, even though it does (at least for me) explain why Chapel is “in love” with Spock in TOS. The episode would have been great if the editors had cut the last scene completely. Chapel clearly doing whatever it takes to help save Spock and return him to normal – with her feelings being unrequited. Oh well, that is today’s Hollywood.
Perhaps the main reason why I feel this way (and I know this sounds a little ridiculous and it flies directly in the face of cannon), I actually really like the Spock/T’Pring relationship. Sandhu and Peck do an excellent job making the audience believe in their relationship, especially last season and it is hard not to cheer for them.
That is the problem with prequels, it was never written so their relationship was always doomed to fail. Too bad because this would have been a cannon violation I would have gladly accepted. But I guess that was a bridge too far.
Okay, bring on next week! Too bad we are halfway through the season. With the two strikes, who know when S3 production will resume so after this year it looks like we may have a long wait for more SNW.
My only nitpick was it seemed weird to me if this planet was close to Vulcan why the Vulcan’s hadn’t surveyed it sooner and noticed the interdimensional gateway thing? We know they continue to maintain their science fleet even after the forming of the Federation/Starfleet. Perhaps it can be explained as they didn’t think it worth their time.
Anyway, that really is just a nitpick, I really like this episode. Peck is great, the whole cast is great. Really enjoying this show.
This episode so highlights the difference between classic and Kurtzman Trek.
I am all for Trek having comedic episodes and comedic moments. I loved Trouble with Tribbles, I Mudd, A Piece of the Action, etc. What do all those comedic episodes have in common? They set up a silly scenario and have our characters act against it. Never do our Trek heroes come out of their “characters” and act like bumbling fools.
So what happens differently in Kurtzman Trek? The writers think that our characters need to act like idiots. Look at the Tribble Short Trek! Look at this episode… They tried to derive comedy by making Spock an idiot, and don’t get me started on the cliche mother-in-law and henpecked husband (a Vulcan male emasculated too in Trek).
I was not against showing a human Spock, hey, Voyager did it with B’Elanna, but her character never acted out of character and just plain rediculous.
If you take all the cannon issues out of Strange New Worlds, season one was pretty good. Season two so far has drastically fallen short.
There are *plenty* of 90s Trek episodes where the cast act like complete buffoons. Have you not seen “Move Along Home” or “Fascination” or “Up The Long Ladder” or “Singularity” or “The Naked Now”?
Let’s not pretend this is a new era exclusive issue.
The only redeeming bit in this episode was Spock getting violent at the crumbs on the table.
This was Spock’s Brain bad. Spock’s Genome?
I doubt very much that the Enterprise has farm animals and a butcher that kills them for Pike to use in his dishes. Likewise, I doubt that a Starship which mission is to travel farther than any other vessel in Starfleet has been receives regular shipments of perishables such as bacon.
If the bacon is replicated, can it really be said that it came from an animal?
Can a Vulcan really be considered to have eaten meat if the meat in question comes was created digitally cobbled together using a protein sequencer, or however it is that a replicator works?
Lab grown meat is a thing and there was a big article about it this week. My guess is that if the technology is a few steps above the ground-floor now, it’s highly possible that it could be in use by the 23rd century. It does use animal products, but it helps avoid the slaughter process. And it can be grown and regrown using the base elements. It could be possible to do out in space that way.
I’m certain the bacon in SNW is as fake as the burger Una had in DIS.