It’s been almost 28 years since the Star Trek: Voyager episode “Tuvix” aired, and it still sparks strong debate. It turns out the stars of the show are just as divided about the moral issues at its core as the show’s fans.
The “Tuvix” debate continues with Voyager cast
Trek Talks 3 is a marathon of Star Trek panels streamed live on January 13 on YouTube to benefit the Hollywood Food Coalition. One of the most fascinating panels was focused on a single episode of Star Trek: Voyager, “Tuvix,” the second season episode where the characters of Tuvok and Neelix were combined (via transporter accident) into a new person (the titular Tuvix). Captain Janeway’s decision to restore Neelix and Tuvok, and therefore essentially kill Tuvix, is controversial, even among the cast. The panel included Voyager stars Ethan Phillips (Neelix), Tim Russ (Tuvok), Garrett Wang (Harry Kim), and Robert Duncan McNeill (Tom Paris), who were joined by Voyager writer Lisa Klink and the man who played Tuvix himself, Tom Wright.
The panel, moderated by McNeill and Wang, started with all of the actors acknowledging that “Tuvix” is the still most controversial episode of the series, then quickly turned into a debate. Tim Russ took the view that Janeway did the right thing, offering his reasons why:
Russ: “The captain’s responsibility is to her crew. That’s what the captain’s responsibility is. And she’s the only one on the ship that can make the decision. And he [Tuvix] cannot reproduce as a species… I believe that point is made [in the episode], there is no other of his kind… He’s an anomaly, whereas the crewpeople that he has replaced already have a family, we have lives.”
Ethan Phillips didn’t explicitly come down on one side or the other, but he posited that Janeway’s decision was “the only example of an execution in all of the franchise.” He also pointed out that Tuvix did nothing to deserve his fate:
Phillips: “The event of the combination of the two was accidental. By executing Tuvix, she’s not making up for a murder or anything like that. He has almost like it’s a right to live because of this accident… I wouldn’t know where to begin to decide. It’s a very complicated area.”
Garrett Wang took a bit of a middle ground view:
Wang: “When Tom Wright showed up I was so impressed with his professionalism, his talent, and his all-around demeanor off camera. I was bowled over he became my favorite person instantly, literally. Tom Wright was to me, someone that I really looked up how he conducted himself. And when he had to leave, I think I cried actually… I wanted somehow to keep all three of them. I didn’t want Tom right to leave. I wanted Neelix to come back. I wanted Tuvok to come back. But I wanted to Tuvix to exist independently of the other two as well.”
Robert Duncan McNeill took the strongest stance against Janeway’s choice:
McNeill: “I watched it again today and watching Janeway have to make this decision and the way she has to do it in such a kind of cold manner, I felt like it kind of hurt her character—I’ll be honest—a little bit. I think she had to earn her way back from this episode.”
From the Trek Talks 3 “Tuvix” panel
Writers wanted Janeway “tortured” by decision
Later McNeill went on to say he would have preferred a different sci-fi solution to the dilemma:
McNeill: “Being science fiction, it’s made-up science, right?. The procedure that [The Doctor developed] is black and white. You have to kill Tuvix or you know do away with Neelix and Tuvok. But it’s made-up science. Could there have been a thing that doctor said like, ‘If you do this we’ll save some DNA. Maybe in the future I can come up with a way to bring Tuvix back. I don’t know, it’s such a black and white decision. It just… It hurt me with the captain.'”
McNeill also suggested that one way to resolve the dilemma would be to take Janeway out of the final decision and have Tuvix “heroically” decide to sacrifice himself. Writer Lisa Klink revealed this was considered and explained why they decided to make it Janeway’s choice:
Klink: “We did talk about that in the room. But then we realized that we wanted to put Janeway in a really difficult position. It’s much more dramatically interesting if she has to make that really, really difficult call than if he did heroically sacrifice himself… You want to torture your characters as much as possible.”
From “Tuvix” (Paramount)
Tuvix actor: “He had to go”
Perhaps ironically, the actor who played Tuvix says he understood Janeway’s decision.
Wright: “Speaking as the character, every entity alive is hardwired to want to survive. So that’s going to be Tuvix’s default thinking. But myself as an actor, I saw that he had to go. There wasn’t enough justification for losing two entities for the sake of one… People ask how I felt about it. The reason I had any feeling at all is because I absolutely loved the character. I know both [Ethan] and I know Tim separately from the show. So to be able to have those two people as as back pocket resources with the creation of this character was, to me, invaluable. There’s an artistic side of me that really would love to keep keep on playing that character for forever and ever. But the practical side of an entire ball of wax dictates something different.”
There was a lot more discussion about the episode, including a description of the original pitch and how Ethan Phillips was originally approached to play Tuvix, so it’s worth watching the whole panel.
Watch Trek Talks 3
Here is the livestream for the full event. (Video should jump to the start of the “Tuvix” panel at 6:11:30)
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Captain Janeway killed Tuvox because she didn’t want to change the title sequence of Star Trek: Voyager.
That’s a joke, but it’s kinda true.
Like the article said, they could have had Tuvix sacrifice himself, but they took the easy option away.
It’s kind of Voyager at its most riskiest and Voyager playing it safe at the same time.
The “easy option” utterly lacking in any drama or moral debate, but giving us a technobabble ending. No thanks.
What’s more technobabble about Tuvix agreeing to sacrifice himself for Neelix and Tuvok than the ending we got? Either way he ends up on the transporter at the end. I don’t follow what you’re getting at here.
Anyway, I’m not saying it’s a bad thing they didn’t go that way. Just that they could have taken the decision out of Janeway’s hands if they wanted to. Personally I’m glad they didn’t. It’s more interesting if Tuvix is fighting for his survival to the very end. It’s the writers job to make life hard for the main characters.
It would be event more interesting if the writers had the guts — in terms of main characters having accountability — for Tuvix to had lived, with Tuvoc and Neelix no longer appearing on the series from that point in.
By not having the guts to leave Tuvix as is, they did the same BS that Marvel did when they cheapened the gravitas and character accountability that we got in the great Infinity War movie, with a cheap plot reversal device in Endagme that diminished the whole storyline.
It is interesting to speculate whether, had this episode been written a few years later, whether they might have seriously considered this route. At the time, television was beginning to transition to serialization; the Sopranos was a mere three years out. DISCO sure didn’t hesitate to kill off characters in its first two seasons.
OTOH, I think this was a character-defining moment for Janeway. The first draft of “City on the Edge of Forever” had Kirk emotionally unable to restrain McCoy from saving Edith Keeler. The problem was that the audience might have been unable to respect Kirk as a leader as a result; hence the change, to where he physically stops McCoy from saving here. I think a similar dynamic might have played out had Janeway elected not to separate Tuvix.
it wasn’t cheap to reverse ‘the snap’, it took sacrifice and loss to fix things
the writer’s at the time didn’t have the ability to change season (or multi-season) contracts by writing in something like that. If they had pitched the idea later or as a season ender giving the production team the option to swap two contracts for one then maybe
The problem is from a dramatic point of view, Tuvix saying he wants the procedure to happen would have gutted the entire point of the ep. At that point why even make it? Transporter accident happened. We undid it. Anyone want breakfast?
Lol, yeah, good point!
:)
I agree it would have been less dramatic to have Tuvix go along with it. Already said that. I just don’t get why River was saying it’s more technobabble. It’s a transporter accident show. It’s inherently a technobabble show already.
Eh…. forgot it.
You’re right about that. The transporter accident plot device thing goes back to TOS so it’s not Berman-era technobabble
LOL all good!
No I think they were right NOT to want Tuvix to go along with it. It would’ve destroyed all the drama over it. I’m happy they went the direction they did. And I don’t really mean Janeway’s decision, but just the fact they didn’t give her an easy out.
😂
That and losing Tim Russ as Tuvok would’ve been a travesty. The character was only meant to be in one episode. They could’ve found an easier way as the new kid said but happy but they didn’t. It what makes Trek such a great show.
Yeah Tim Russ is such a talent it would not have been the same show without him. He is the only other Vulcan that even comes close to Nimoy or Mark Leonard in my book.
Well it’s obviously hilarious how Tim Russ fully backs how it all worked out — like none of us could see that coming, right? ;-)
Wait, wait, wait… first she killed Tuvix, THEN Tuvox? Wow… quite the set on ol’ Auntie Kathy.
(I kid, I kid)
And they should have changed it by season 4 as they were in Borg space
The episode, as is, could have been made so much better by a single final scene where Tuvok visits her to tell her she made the wrong decision.
Yes. That would have been great.
Ya just gave me chills….
Not only chills from the twist, but if tuvok had actually confronted her on it, it would have — and I know this will be a shock for some fans used to voyager — meant Janeway would have learned and grown as a character; it would have forced her to re-examine her command decisions in a way she never really did before or since..
Great idea. Wish you’d been on the writing staff. I genuinely loathed Janeway in that episode. It was an execution and it was a very long time before I overcame how I felt about her actions.
Her decision had merit, but how the whole thing was done (in the script) was a failure in writing. All told, still a solid episode.
……as long as Tuvok is passing Kes on the way out, after she thanked Janeway for returning Neelix to her.
There’s always another point of view.
More poignant would have been Janeway, Tuvok and Neelix speaking in her quarters.
Think about this:
Tuvok and Neelix both “died” when they returned to Voyager as Tuvix while beaming.
It makes sense that Tuvix died and they BOTH felt Tuvix’s death as they were being reborn as their separate selves.
If Janeway had have asked each them:
“Did I make the right choice?”
Tuvok could reply that ” I do not know. I’ve experienced death, birth, death and a rebirth all in a few days…”
Neelix could say similar or:
“We’re asking the wrong person…He’s not here to answer…Good Night, Captain…”
That’s stupid. Because you’re not asking the wrong person.
Janeway did what she did because she was sad she lost neelix and tuvok. It was, essentially, her inability to cope with loss.
She justified it by saying they needed them back to fulfill their roles on the ship, and by saying that tuvok and neelix would want to be alive and she was essentially speaking up for them.
But by having tuvok tell her, point blank, “wrong choice” you are basically saying “you spoke up for me and neelix but that’s not what we wanted. We were in there, we were Tuvix, and we wanted to live.” Or even worse, tuvok and neelix now carry the guilt of having been brought back at the expense of another life.
I haven’t re-watched the episode in a long time, but I recall the visage on Tuvok’s face at the end suggested that was, in fact, what he did think. Perhaps he didn’t verbalize because it contradicts the utilitarian “needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one” Vulcan philosophy.
I’m not sure Tuvok and Neelix retained any memories of being merged into one being.
Tuvok most likely wasn’t thrilled with having been merged with Neelix. He was often annoyed by the Talaxian.
I disagree. Rather than having a character say it out loud after the fact, it’s better for them to say as little as possible and let the audience make that call. It’s better art, and probably why we’re still debating the episode all these years later.
Seconded. The whole point is for this very article. For the fans to debate it and do what trek does best. Question the morality in the seemingly every day decisions we make.
You disagree but you’re also an idiot. Because non verbally suggesting it wasn’t even part of the episode, no matter how much anyone tried to say otherwise 30 years later.
Besides, tuvok counseling Janeway on her decisions was a common element of the series. So it would have been perfectly fitting and ironic if when he went to her this time, it wasn’t “stop worrying you did what you had to do,” like he usually says, it was “you fucked up.”
You disagree but you’re also an idjit. Because non verbally suggesting it wasn’t even part of the episode, no matter how much anyone tried to say otherwise 30 years later.
Besides, tuvok counseling Janeway on her decisions was a common element of the series. So it would have been perfectly fitting and ironic if when he went to her this time, it wasn’t “stop worrying you did what you had to do,” like he usually says, it was “you effed up.”
I wasn’t saying anything was nonverbally communicated. It was all left for the audience to judge whether Janeway’s decision was right or not. Which is, I think, a good bit of writing.
And if you can’t converse with others without hurling insults, then don’t bother. It makes you look petty and juvenile, and it hurts your argument. Regardless of your age, obviously you have some growing up to do. Good luck.
I know it is not apples to apples, but Janeway’s decision is similar to the impossible moral quandary faced by Captain Archer in Enterprise, when he had to choose saving the life of his incumbent engineer Trip, even though it meant the death of Sim.
Maybe the show just didn’t have the fanbase that Voyager had, but I don’t recall a large amount of anger or dismay over the episode Similtude. In fact I think it is heralded by many as one of the best episodes of Enterprise.
Some plot differences contribute to the difference in reaction: The procedure that would lengthen sim’s life was experimental and unproven, meaning if they tried it and it failed, both he and Trip would both die, while on a mission where he was desperately needed. Not to mention that sim’s natural lifespan was merely days anyway— if they did nothing, it would have been the same result.
When it comes to Tuvix, there’s no reason they couldn’t continue with him as their tactical officer and cook, they simply killed him because they missed their friends, Tuvok and Neelix, and had no respect for his autonomy or right to self determination.
Plenty of ways around that controversial ending: write it so that there’s no choice, have Tuvix sacrifice himself to save the ship, or even just have Janeway desperately hurt by the decision.
Janeway’s decision also directly contradicted past decisions she’d made — like the very decision that got them stranded — and was wholly inconsistent with her character. And that nobody really defended Tuvix also contributed to the divisive response.
There is one huge difference there tho. Janeway was thinking about the lives of Tuvok and Neelix and getting her crew of 100+ people home. Archer was having PTSD from Earth’s attack, he was on a mission to save ALL of Earth, he KNEW he was breaking his morals, and he was just like, the mission had to continue.
Couldn’t disagree with Robert more: yes, it’s all made-up science, and they could have easily come up with some hand-waving technobabble to keep Tuvix alive somehow. But that would have completely destroyed the dramatic thrust of the episode. It would have been the boring, cowardly way out, reducing the story into just another disposable “problem of the week” instead of this controversial, difficult, heartbreaking tale that we’re still talking about today.
He suggests Janeway’s decision “hurt her character”, but — I mean, YEAH — for me, that was the point. She was put into an impossible situation and there was no call she could make that would have satisfied everyone. For me that didn’t take away from her character, it added a good chunk of depth.
But all of this is also what makes the episode so great: there’s so many interpretations of it that are all completely valid. That we can look at this story and the choices it made and have such varied, emotional reactions to it is impressive. That’s damned good TV. :)
Exactly. You can always count on Janeway to make a decision even when there are no good options available.
Precisely.
Let’s all hang on to those Tom Paris commemorative plates, tho.
This, exactly!
On point man, on point! 👍
“She was put into an impossible situation”.
No. No, she wasn’t in an impossible position. It wasn’t her place to play God. What happened happened. She committed a murder. She could have just…not.
Nope disagree. She brought back two people who she could bring back from a transporter accident. Tuvix was never supposed to exist. Needs of the two outweigh the needs of the one accident. People that were vital to the crew and valued as such.
But I love we’re having this same argument for over 20 years now. 😂
Ain’t Star Trek grand!
I agree completely. It was hard decision with no good choices, but given the two choices available, I think Janeway made the right one. And it’s clear that it was hard for her; Mulgrew’s face right after doing it … she made it clear that she was having to steel herself to do such a difficult thing.
While Tuvix was innocent, the fact is that his existence consumed two other lives; he doesn’t have the right to exist at the expense of two other people.
I’m always surprised at the controversy around this, because to me, the choice is agonizing but clear. I don’t have the right to eat you and your brother in order to fuel my own life.
Well, yes, but the question of rights is complicated by the fact that the situation was precipitated by an accident, not a conscious decision on the part of an individual to further its own existence at the expense of two others’. For better or worse, humans tend to make very different moral calculations in these circumstances given the context. “Tuvix” was in essence the VGR exploration of The Trolley Problem, and a pretty decent one at that. I just wish the series as a whole had taken those kinds of risks with its characters.
Yeah, I wish the writers of Voyager had taken more risks. “Tuvix” is an episode we’re still talking about decades later, but there aren’t many Voyager episodes we can say that about.
There aren’t that many Trek episodes across the franchise where those risks were taken.
Couldn’t agree with you more, Phil!
DS9’s “In the Pale Moonlight,” for me, falls into the same category of episodes as “Tuvix.” Sisko was in a no-win scenario too — compromise his principles or allow countless numbers of Federation officers to continue dying in the no-win war against the Dominon.
It’s Trek like this, despite GR’s stance on war in the Trek universe, that keeps us talking, debating, and engaging in issues that still effect us today.
I shoulda said “war and conflict”, not just “war”.
I barely remember this ep, possibly because I didn’t see it all the way through, but I have seen many discussions of it here and elsewhere. In comparing it with questionable Sisko decisions, I’m wondering if FOR THE UNIFORM might be a better comparison than MOONLIGHT, as I find Sisko’s behavior throughout UNIFORM about as abhorrent as I’ve found any lead Captain’s decision in Trek history, especially the call to poison a whole planet.
TOS’s City on the Edge of Forever falls into this catagory, IMO. I’m a bit stretched to think of an episode of TNG, maybe The Survivors and Lower Decks.
This is also my opinion, but Twilight Zone tended to do a better job using sci-fi to hold a mirror up to the awfulness of the human condition. That’s a bit off topic, though.
I dont feel like many ppl debate moonlight tho… they took it easy. Sisko didn’t know Garrack was going to kill the Romulan. Janeway knew everything she was doing. Big difference.
Here’s the thing, hi by the way :-). There are more eps we could talk about. A lot more. We just don’t for some reason. Take Hope and Fear for example. Arturis was 100% right to blame Janeway for the death of his species. She was guilty. She sided with the borg just to get her crew of 100 ppl home and entire civilizations either died or were assimilated. Later she said, “ you have to understand, I couldn’t have known.” And she is right. She couldn’t have known. But that is why the Prime Directive exists. Because you can’t know. If you could know, then interfere all you want. For all the complaining she did about Kirk and Spock and Sulu never being worthy of being in Starfleet in the 24th century that she did in Flashback (I will NEVER forgive her character for that) she did WAY worse then they ever did and then got promoted for it.
Certainly there are other episodes we could talk about; I didn’t mean to suggest that no other episodes bear discussion. But “Tuvix” seems to me to be alone in provoking truly passionate discussion among huge numbers of fans, even all these years later.
And hello to you, too. :-)
LOL I know and I agree you are not wrong. What I meant to say is that for some reason we never focus on the other eps, just Tuvix. Not saying that you specifically were saying such. It was me commenting on the population at large lol. Hope all is well with you!!!
Take Hope and Fear for example. Arturis was 100% right to blame Janeway for the death of his species. She was guilty. She sided with the borg just to get her crew of 100 ppl home and entire civilizations either died or were assimilated. Later she said, “ you have to understand, I couldn’t have known.” And she is right. She couldn’t have known. But that is why the Prime Directive exists. Because you can’t know. If you could know, then interfere all you want. For all the complaining she did about Kirk and Spock and Sulu never being worthy of being in Starfleet in the 24th century that she did in Flashback (I will NEVER forgive her character for that) she did WAY worse then they ever did and then got promoted for it.
This is a great summary of why I have considered Janeway near the bottom of my Captains list, which goes, in order: Kirk, Sisko, Pike, Picard, Michael, Archer, Janeway, Freeman.
As you and I have discussed before, I think, minimally (i.e. if Starfleet was too chick-shit to do a formal investigation/court martial), she should have been held at the rank of Captain indefinitely instead of the promotion to Admiral — which I view as good PR for Starfleet given the great news story of Voyager’s return, with Starfleet brass deciding to sweep these very poor decisions/prime directive crimes under the rug.
Yuppers totally agree. The fact that she got her crew home totally overshadowed the war crimes she committed. But at least an acknowledgement of them on the show would have been nice.
Well, yes, but the question of rights is complicated by the fact that the situation was precipitated by an accident, not a conscious decision on the part of an individual to further its own existence at the expense of two others.
Exactly. The accident resulted in the murder of two characters. But the second murder was ordered on purpose by Janeway. Huge difference, and I think actually she could have been prosecuted in a court martial for that if Starfleet wanted to bring charges — from a legal perspective, I think that could be prosecuted as murder.
Tuvok and Neelix were not murdered. That is a gross exaggeration. They were lost in an accident. Tuvix was literally ordered to end his existence. The former was an accident. The latter was a choice. That is the difference and why Janeway was wrong.
Actually that’s what I was trying to say, but you just said it better than me.
And I do think that being an accessory to a suicide ordered by you is pretty shaky on legal grounds for a captain
Oh, oops! Sorry, I’m tired. Long day yesterday LOL!
Michael, that John Black script preceding GR’s version of THE MENAGERIE I told you about is now available to read online, according to this link (and again, alas, same as the one I have, it is only ‘part two’ … )
It’s at that other trek site bbs with a thread title of FROM THE FIRST DAY TO THE LAST (am not posting link because it seems like that causes problems.)
If you read it, let me know what you think (it is really only act iv that is the big deal to me, and one that could have been immensely significant for Kirk’s character as well as the Trek universe.)
This episode is what made me love Janeway even more! 🙂
Her face at the end was someone who just did the hardest thing in her life but for Star Trek it’s just another Tuesday. But she made a decision that she thought was best for her ship and crew and I always admired for making the tough calls and always doing what has to be done.
Tough Captain from beginning to end!
Yes! Janeway is a kind person who will listen to her crew, but she’s also very firmly THE CAPTAIN. That’s a hard balance to strike, and they were SO lucky that got Mulgrew to portray it. Much as I like the current Star Trek shows, I don’t know if Sonequa Martin-Green or Anson Mount could have shown us BOTH sides — the kind listener and the tough-as-nails leader — the way Mulgrew did.
Kate is a top-tier performer, no doubt about it! Only someone with her skills at nuance could play both sides and SHOW us, not tell us, of the conflict boiling within Janeway.
Yes! We really lucked out, getting her.
So you figure if they had stuck with French Janeway that she’d still be debating the issue instead of taking action?
Totally agree. I might not like Janeway but I LOVE Kate Mulgrew!
Kate Mulgrew is on another level. Why I hope we see her back in live action as Captain Janeway. Excited to see her in Prodigy but I want to see her in uniform again! And I think we will! 🙂
I think it depends on if Paramount gets sold, and to whom.
She’s got two roles on one of the series already. They only have a limited number of slots to bring in these legacy characters, so I’d really like to see one of the DS9 cast brought back first before we give Mulgrew yet another role. She’s covered already.
BTW I totally miss you! Plan to be back on TrekCre more when I guess Discovery starts again. We will be torturing ourselves through it like nearly every season! 😂🙄
But maybe next season will be different. Anyway always great to see you honey!
I miss you, too! I’ll be glad when there’s new Trek to discuss on Trek Core, so I can hang out with you and AmiRami and Locutus and Eric Cheung and iMike and all the gang.
Totally!!! I love hanging out with all you guys there. It’s always a fun party every week, especially with my boy Amirami! 😀
Miss you too buddy!
LOL maybe I should join Trek-core again! I like parties too. ;D
And they have an ignore button there so easier to avoid the party poopers.
Hey .. you’re always invited! 🙂
Hey! What about me?!?! LOL!
I mentioned you!!! Read again!
LOL oops!!!!!!! Sorry Last night was a late night hahahahah! Not for bad reasons, don’t worry :-P
I hope you are not mad at me :(
No, of course not! Just feeling low in energy (and hence not very chatty) today.
Ok, thank you! Feel better!
You’re included too man!!! 😀
Oops, that was my bad hahaha, it’s been a long week!
No worries buddy! It’s a lot of posts here too so easy to miss! 🙂
I truly miss the old stomping grounds though.
I gotta disagree with all due respect my friend. I agree Tuvix wasn’t born the way Tuvok or Nelix was and this wasn’t supposed to happen. But nothing in Voyager was supposed to happen. The crew was never supposed to be pulled into the Delta quadrant in the first place. If Janeway was to use that same logic, she should have sent the crew home in the very first ep.
I know Star Trek does not believe in fate but they do believe in the prime directive. What happened happened. Tuvix is a new life and it is their job to seek out new life, not destroy it, even if it means their lives. And Janeway, as per usual, did the exact opposite.
I know Star Trek does not believe in fate but they do believe in the prime directive. What happened happened. Tuvix is a new life and it is their job to seek out new life, not destroy it, even if it means their lives. And Janeway, as per usual, did the exact opposite.
Exactly! And that’s been a recurring problem with her — she’s a hypocrite on the prime directive.
It’s just… I can’t even with her on that show… I do admit tho I like her a LOT more on Prodigy!
I love the Holo Janeway on Prodigy, but bringing in the “live” Janeway as well just reaked of fan service overkill…and then Chakotay of all characters too…lol
Ha well lets see how it goes next season
I absolutely love her on Prodigy too! But she will always have my heart on Voyager of course. Sisko also broke the Prime Directive but their backs were to the wall. Archer and Kirk also broke it (OK there was no Prime Directive for Archer but still). They can’t all be Picard.
Yeah, they all had their moments to be sure. Even Picard when saving uugghh Wesley.
Disagree away my friend! 🙂
But if this was a story about two infant babies being merged into one baby from two different mothers and they had a way to bring them back…I don’t think it would be much that of a discussion. Or maybe I can be wrong on that.
And the needs of the two outweigh the needs of the one. Star Trek taught us that too.
But that’s why I love this discussion, everyone will just see it in their way like abortion.
And if Janeway got them home in Caretaker we wouldn’t have a show lol. But I got you for sure!
Well ya about Caretaker hahahaha
“But if this was a story about two infant babies being merged into one baby from two different mothers and they had a way to bring them back…I don’t think it would be much that of a discussion.”
Wow, yes, I think this argument would make it even much more sensitive. Imagine how that would’ve played out lol. But maybe the mothers would’ve accepted it but it makes it clear it’s not black and white either. The reality is if you could bring back someone most people would obviously. What complicates it is you are ending a new life for theirs but that life only exists because the other life was effectively killed to create them. None of this is simple, not in the least. No matter what people would be upset about it.
No. No, she wasn’t in an impossible position. It wasn’t her place to play God. What happened happened. She committed a murder. She could have just…not.
Yeah, exactly. What happened with Tuvix was an accidentally murder of two characters that was not the result of a Janeway action, but then when it’s her decision, she orders murder of a character.
It is what it is. Yeah, it would have sucked to have lost Tuvok, but can you imagine if for once in Star Trek, we could see a main character die on a series how great that would be in terms of upping the suspense and gravitas of the show? Knowing everyone is going to come out fine every single week is rather boring and unconvincing.
I think there would not be such heated disagreements among fans if Neelix had been a character that everyone deeply loved and identified with. Tuvox was somewhat liked, but not loved the way Spock was. The idea that Janeway would blithely destroy the lives of two individuals that did not connect on a fundamental level to most of the fandom in order to allow a more likeable character to live is the real quandary that most of us don’t want to admit. It would be a little more tangible if one imagines Captain Picard and Geordie LaForge merged. It’s easy to see that the rationale becomes “will the original two individuals be missed”. We all would want two of our favorite characters returned to themselves. This episode of Voyager was to be a philosophical query. Personally, I would have done what Janeway did. In the accidental merging of the two individuals, their self actualization was taken from them without their consent and thy deserved to have that restored to them.
While I don’t agree with your conclusion, you make a lot of good points here.
Totally agree with you. With all due respect to him, if they do that, then don’t even make the episode because why bother.
but it has no lasting consequences and that why it does not work in the end
It was a command decision. She weighed her choices and had to live with it the rest of her days. It was in my opinion, the correct thing to do.
LOL @ live with it. She forgot it and it was never brought up again.
The problem is, it broke the prime directive.
Agreed. This is why being the captain is hard lol. But I totally agreed with her decision just the same!
They could have used the same process that split Will Riker into Will and Thomas to duplicate Tuvix to keep one of him and split the other one back into Tuvok and Neelix…
I mean, you’re still Tuvixing a guy at the end of the day. Same problem, but now you’ve made it incredibly awkward for the surviving Tuvix. 😆
The copy need not survive transport, though. it can be split in the buffer before it technically exists.
They could have combined the two processes, a copy and split in the one go. ;)
Exactly.
The process that split Riker into two was an accident, and IIRC that episode correctly there were specific atmospheric conditions on that planet. Probably not easy to duplicate.
But not impossible if they have all the facts at hand.
But wouldn’t the other Tuvix also have a will to live? I think you would end up with the same conundrum.
The copy need not survive transport, though. it can be split in the buffer before it technically exists.
Ah, the technobabble transporter BUFFER — the BS plot device that keeps on giving and giving and giving…lol
Heh.
Brilliant! :D
Thanks! heh
That’s a great suggestion. The issue tho is that when Will and Thomas were created into two, both were their own sentient beings and were defined as being separate beings from one another. The moral dilemma would have still existed IMHO ,
The copy need not materialize, though. The split can happen while it is still energy in the transport buffer.
Hmm, interesting. But Transporters are a tricky thing. Remember Pulaski being reversed in age to her normal age in the horrible TNG S2? If you show too many stories where the transporter can do so many amazing things then life starts to be eternal and all the drama of the story gets pulled out of everything.
Well, at one point everything that has been done in Star Trek coalesces. Lower Decks does that sort of thing all the time, where they use plot points from previous series for comedic effect. Here, it would be used for dramatic effect.
Fundamentally, Janeway using the Riker incident to solve the Tuvix conundrum is not that different from Picard consulting the events from The Naked Time to solve the problem in The Naked Now.
It’s one captain using events from a previous mission to solve a current dilemma.
Bro at this point the only thing transporters haven’t done yet is become sentient on their own lol.
These things have done every crazy thing you can think of. They are the biggest plot devices ever created in science fiction. We literally seen people time travel and jump to other universes on them as well. Creating new life almost feels mundane at this point.
My feeling about Janeway here is that these are the hard decisions that only she can make, for the greater good, separating herself beyond the explorer, beyond the personal feelings, but as a Starfleet Captain to maintain order. Mulgrew was and is a true diamond-caliber actor, allowing small facial movements to convey emotion when her words and actions could not. We all loved Tuvix as a character, but this was about not letting us forget that the Captain remains above and separate from the crew/”the family”. I dig these episodes (see also The Omega Directive) where she is above all THE CAPTAIN.
Well. I guess they could have tried to Tom Riker him.
Spin off series! Let’s bring back Tuvix with his own show!
Don’t give Kurtzman ideas…
I completely ageed with Janeway’s decision back then and do today. And take note how much I always hated Neelix so I’m not biased.
The needs of the two..
And this was what made Voyager unique to the other shows. Maybe if she was in Federation space where she could consult with other scientists or even sent him to a lab to try and keep all three then maybe they could’ve found another way. But options were limited in the DQ and no matter what she did she would’ve gotten flack for it. That’s why this is a great episode! Star Trek moral quandaries in the worst way possible.
With that bonehead decision on top of the deal with the devil with the Borg that basically sentenced millions to be a assimilated, her star fell in my view. I was frankly kind of surprised she made Admiral given poor decisions like that. She tended to overthink those big decisions and not go with what she knew was right.
PS: Also, all that for borderline pedo-phile Neelix… Are you kidding me? Save the Jeffrey Epstein of Star Trek over Tuvix?
Trek has glossed over that command training in Starfleet does actually involve life and death decisions. Even in TNG’s Thine Own Self, Troi really had to be coached along into ordering the LaForge simulation to his simulated death in the engine room before she passed. She probably should have been washed out for that. Janeway was presented with a lesser of two evils dilemma, and to the writer’s credit they didn’t create some bulls**t deus ex machina out for Janeway having to make a difficult decision. Life doesn’t always give us happy endings, any decision Janeway was going to make would not have been satisfying…
Well for me, if it’s the creepy old dude who’s banging a questionably legal teenager every night on my own ship versus Tuvix, I’m going Tuvix every time.
Robert Duncan McNeill is 100% right on this one
Ceating your own context again, I see. In universe Ocampians only lived eight or nine years, so in human years she was 25-30 when she came on board at the ripe old Ocampian age of 2.
Opinions have varied on this for a long time now….
…
That sounds like a really convenient excuse to live with a woman who looks 17 at most. And unfortunately, Neelix fits the part of sug-dad dude to a T.
The optics are horrible. What were they thinking?
Jennifer Lien, who played Kes, was 21 in 1995, when Voyager began.
Wow, she looked so much younger than that!
We can say whatever we want in terms of the supposed alien ages and the age of the actress, but the optics to me look like kind of a pudgy old dude playing sugar-ddy to, and banging a questionably legal teenager.
I actually agree with you. Not only was Lien playing an alien that only lives till 9, she played her as an innocent child who literally didn’t know the universe outside her tiny world. Neelix AND Tom absolutely took advantage of her. That character would never exist in today’s TV.
Neelix AND Tom absolutely took advantage of her. That character would never exist in today’s TV.
100%
Speaking of 17, in TNG’s Tapestry, it’s 52 year old Patrick Stewart playing tonsil hocky with 17 year old JC Brandy. I’m trusting you find these optics horrible, as well.
Not great, but it’s not like he was her sugar-ddy and having intimate relations with her for years.
Tom Paris also wanted to date Kes too. 😉
But Paris would date anything that moved at the time.
It’s not Earth 1987, it’s a totally different species with a different life cycle on the other side of the galaxy. And unless they stick with just Ocampans, every species will be just older. Imagine being a Q who is billions of years old and decides to date a humanoid. Now that’s an age gap. 😂
LOL the fights Paris and Neelix had over Kes were hilarious.
I don’t get into the Kes age thing stuff but yes she an a-l-i-e-n and they simply age differently than humans and where other aliens who has been involved with multiple other species understands that. But yes, I get it, we’re still humans watching a fictional TV show, so we’re going to have our own subjective norms over things like this. It’s the same issue with gay and lesbian stories. People still have a problem with that even when it’s about a-l-i-e-n-s who don’t have the same hang ups or cultural norms, but I digress on that as well.
In other words I don’t get on Paris case for liking Kes and who I remind others he married her in an alternative timeline and even had a baby together. That’s because she’s, say it again, an alien with different life cycles.
Yeah, Tuvix >> Neelix for the reasons you stated. The Neelix-Kes relationship looked bad to me then. Now, it looks horrible to most people.
That was a really really bad decision creation of the writers, both the characters and their relationship.
“Yeah, Tuvix >> Neelix for the reasons you stated. The Neelix-Kes relationship looked bad to me then. Now, it looks horrible to most people. That was a really really bad decision creation of the writers, both the characters and their relationship.”
100% — AND IT’S SO FREAKING CREEPY!!!
The problem isn’t so much the actors ages (21 and 40, respectively), but that in-universe explanation on the incredibly short life span of Ocampians. Had Ms. Lien stayed on for the series run, they would have had to have her die of old age by the seventh season. Then we’d of been treated to creepy conversations about Neelix getting busy with a much older partner.
Strange that Patrick Stewart doesn’t draw much criticism for frenching the 17 year old actress in the episode Tapestry. That’s a 35 year age difference, and she was actually a minor.
Actually that’s not completely true. They had introduced Ocampans being as old as 15 years old in the second season episode Cold Fire where they met the second Caretaker.
They were probably setting up the idea she would go to live much longer and given her special cognitive powers.
They weren’t very consistent with that since they showed an elderly Kes in the episode ‘Before and After’ and again in ‘Fury’.
Had Kes stayed a regular on the show, then I can see them finding a sci-fi way to keep her looking younger (the bio-temporal chamber) so Jennifer Lien wouldn’t need to spend the rest of the series wearing geriatric makeup. But since they let her go from the show, it seems they decided to stick with the original life span for the Ocampans.
This is Star Trek, characters have died multiple times and come back and like nothing happened. I’m pretty sure if she stayed on the show she would’ve just looked like the actors age. Fury was a one and done episode and she was no longer a regular so it didn’t really matter.
Well said — there was a head scratching lack of consistency on this,
No they weren’t very consistent, but again this is Star Trek lol. Every week Spock had some new Vulcan super power that wasn’t mentioned again. The Borg, Klingons, Trills and Romulans had all gone through several iterations over the years since their first introductions in both looks and development.
I’m guessing Kes would’ve looked the same as well. In fact, the other Ocampian Tanis that TG1701 brought up didn’t look old at all. He looked older because the actor himself was in his 40s at the time, and was played by Ambassador Soval himself, Gary Graham, but didn’t look elderly either.
I suspect Kes would’ve just looked slightly older if she stayed but that’s it.
OMG I forgot he was played the same actor who played Soval! Cool!
For the record I never liked Kes that much either but I would’ve kept her 10 times over Neelix. But I would keep him 10 times over Burnham…ugh.
Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, I don’t think they would’ve ever put old lady make up on her either.
Actually what I always find funny on Star Trek is all these aliens are supposed to be super old from Tuvok to Phlox and they all look so young lol. I was shocked to learn Tuvok was over 100 years old but I guess Vulcan black don’t crack! 😁
Isn’t T’Pol in her 60s on Enterprise too? I know that’s young for Vulcans but c’mon??
Anyway the evidence is quite overwhelming being old on Star Trek is not the same as looking old unless you’re just a boring human. Kes probably would’ve looked younger as she got older. 😉
“ There wasn’t enough justification for losing two entities for the sake of one… ”
So ironically, the one person that sides with me on the issue of Tuvix… is Tuvix himself. :-) Fascinating.
Love this episode. There was no right answer but I think she made the best decision overall.
It was a difficult decision for her, but she’s the captain and that’s who has to make those kinds of decisions. I’m sure she didn’t like being in that situation, but it comes with the territory of responsibility.
It didn’t really hurt my opinion of her.
What it did do was remind me that someone in her position doesn’t have the luxury of pleasing everyone.
Damn right man! Dann right! 👍
I respected her more after that, not less. It wasn’t easy for her but Janeway pushes through. It’s like when Captain Burnham manages to stop herself from crying. Same thing… sort of.
I was so relieved when Janeway corrected the transporter mistake and brought back Tuvok and Neelix. She made the best decision for the situation IMO. I’m sure Tuvok and Neelix thanked her. The needs of the many and all that.
Well, there’s a reason why there’s actors, and there’s writers, and mixing the two doesn’t always work.
People talk about this episode because of the moral dilemma. A technobabble deus ex machina would have made it pedestrian.
Incidentally, ENT “Similitude” presented a similar issue; I consider it one of ENT’s best.
Oh, it’s one of Voyager’s best because Janeway was faced with that no-win scenario and was forced to decide without the benefit of BS deus ex machina story gimmicks. A great episode that proves my point: Voyager should have been a darker show about the exploration of what these people would do when pushed to their limits, not “Hey, Harry, what’s new on the holodeck this week?”
I agree with you on all counts. This episode was great because there was no perfect solution. And, yeah, a lot of the potential in Voyager’s setup was squandered. It didn’t fully utilize the potential and that kept it imo, from really carving out a unique niche from TNG. At least one of the reasons for that was Paramount who wanted Voyager to replace TNG and didn’t want it to diverge much from the TNG formula. Ron Moore, when he was finished with DS9, came over to Voyager and wanted to shake it up and make it darker and more dramatic but was rebuffed by Brannon Braga, which led to their estrangement. Of course, Moore got to do what he wanted, and then some, with his Battlestar Galactica reboot.
You diagnosed it perfectly — Paramount wanted another TNG and it certainly wasn’t DS9.
And, yeah, a lot of the potential in Voyager’s setup was squandered. It didn’t fully utilize the potential and that kept it imo, from really carving out a unique niche from TNG.
Well said!
Unfortunately VOY premise was just ahead of its time when episodic TV still ruled the airwaves. The irony is if they rebooted the show today it would’ve been very serialized and could’ve captured the premise better like Discovery and Picard…but I don’t think those are great examples either lol.
I don’t think you can *entirely* blame it on the “before its time” theory, though. DS9 and B5 had already given us serialized storylines.
I think part of the problem is that the writers didn’t want to give us a second morose series. They wanted the audience to be gung-ho about shipping out under Captain Janeway; a series about a crew barely on the edge of survival week after week wasn’t that. And frankly…while I agree VOY didn’t live up to its premise, I also see how that view isn’t entirely wrong.
I liked ENT’s approach or exploring deep space, but not *entirely* cutting the apron streams to the known universe, better.
DS9 got away with it because it wasn’t on a network. This has been stated many times. In fact Ira Stephen Behr has said once the ratings didn’t gel like it did for DS9 like it did TNG, they were basically ignored by the studio and was allowed to basically do what they wanted. VOY didn’t have the same luxury because they were still the face of a fledgling network. By the time ENT showed up, serialization was becoming a bigger deal on network TV and was allowed to experiment more in general and I thought did a great job with it…certainly waaay better than DIS or PIC lol. But yes DS9 became an amazing show (IMO) due to that decision.
Never seen B5 so can’t speak to that show but it too wasn’t on a network at the time either.
Anyway, I’m not suggesting that VOY had troubles for that reason alone obviously but I do think they really wanted a TOS/TNG alien/crisis of the week type of show and where it’s premise suffered for it.
Y’know, there were A LOT of technobabble deux ex machinas in TNG and VOY and probably a lot in DS9.
Very little of that in TOS, probably because they didn’t have the special effects technology?
I dunno, but I one of the things I loved about TOS was that, thanks to not having sfx technology of the time, they had to resort to more theatre and personal drama and grit.
I think the later shows, TNG-ENT, suffered a bit thanks to an overreliance on that technobabble.
Considering it’s maybe the most cited episode of Voyager, I think they did okay. And remind me not to hire milksop McNeill for the writers room of my proposed Starcrash reboot.
Janeway’s “coldness” was a professional mask for her sense of guilt — this makes it dramatically richer and more plausible.
Gotta say, this is probably one of the best episodes of Voyager, in that it is so controversial and well executed. Tom Wright really did imbue that Tuvix character with a lot of soul so that the audience, well me at least, instantly liked him and didn’t want him to go.
As for Janeway’s decision, here’s an analogy that I’ve thought of: It’s kind of like an organ donation, right? Two people in this case, die in an accident, and their organs are used for the life of a third. As Ethan Phillips said, there was no murder here. Tuvix was a complete innocent and had done absolutely nothing to deserve a death penalty.
The twist is, of course, that the entire process can be reversed. That is, Tuvok and Neelix can be resurrected but Tuvix has to die.
Ethically, I think I’m with Robbie McNeil on this one. I think Janeway, as much as I like her (Kate Mulgrew was perfect in the role), made the wrong decision in this case.
I think Tuvix would have worked as a character and it would have been interesting to see how his relationships developed with the other characters. How to resolve that relationship with Kes (though I’ve always extremely Neelix-Kes relationship). And, again, as they discussed in the talk, what about Tuvok’s love for his wife? Eventually, when they regained contact with the Alpha Quadrant, how would she have taken her husband being replaced by Tuvix? So there’s a lot of possibilities for the writers there. And, again, I think it’s obvious that Tom Wright was a really good actor who could’ve continued to add layers to this character.
Finally, no more Neelix! I’ve always really really disliked that character. I find him irritating and grating. It’s nothing personal for Ethan Phillips, who I consider a good actor, it’s just the character and the relationship with Kes, who is essentially a 9 year old innocent. I think the two were just bad decisions by the creators.
So, imo, all of that would’ve been a plus with keeping Tuvix. The only downside would’ve been the loss of Tuvok. Tuvok is one of the characters I really like on Voyager and I was very impressed by the way Tim Russ brought that character to life. He was in a tough place being the first featured Vulcan since Nimoy and Lenard, and, imo, Russ just did great. I honestly wish we’d had more episodes featuring that character who was Vulcan but definitely was his own man and not Spock at all.
Finally, no more Neelix! I’ve always really really disliked that character. I find him irritating and grating. It’s nothing personal for Ethan Phillips, who I consider a good actor, it’s just the character and the relationship with Kes, who is essentially a 9 year old innocent. I think the two were just bad decisions by the creators.
I mean, today here in 2024 Neelix looks like the Jeffrey Epstein of Star Trek. Neelix is “that dude” who goes to high school sports game to see the cheerleaders, and who has an only-fans account.
Yeah, I know, that’s what I’ve been saying for years. He’s the truck-driving man who picks up a teenage girl who wants to get away from her folks.
And they had a female creator for Voyager, Jeri Taylor there too? I find it hard to believe they messed this up so badly, even then? Did any of these folks have daughters?!??!
I just never ever took a liking to those two characters and I thought the relationship between them was creepy, forced, and just distasteful. I wasn’t sorry to see Kes leave, but I wish Neelix had gone with her.
Again, it’s not personal to Phillips or Lien. I understand Lien had done some good work as an actress and Mulgrew really thought she was great and was very sorry to see her leave. It wasn’t her fault, the writers and creators were the ones who failed, not her at all. I wish she had been treated better and I’m sorry to hear about her difficulties. Life can hurt a lot.
I also didn’t care much for Chakotay and Kim. I always thought it would’ve been interesting if they’d killed off some of the low-hanging fruit in Voyager and replaced them with new characters. Kind of like Doctor Who. It certainly worked with Jeri Ryan’s excellent Seven of Nine. Seven was probably my favorite for some reason…
Yeah, I know, that’s what I’ve been saying for years. He’s the truck-driving man who picks up a teenage girl who wants to get away from her folks.
100%.
Neelix Is the Jeffrey Epstein of Star Trek.
I support Janeway. However, we are still debating the moral implications almost 30 years later and that is great Star Trek. It’s the Star Trek I miss.
I liked how it didn’t tell the audience how they were supposed to or should feel about the morality of Janeway’s decision. That episode sparked many years of debate. It really was good Star Trek.
Definitely! 👍
I really like SNW and love LDS but I miss these kinds of stories old Trek did very well. I love 30 years later we’re still debating it and there is truly no right call… only in the eyes of the beholder.
It’s fun to see how divided this board still is which means so many decades later everyone is still passionate over the outcome.
This is Star Trek at it’s best!
But at least we can all agree on one thing…
There are 4 lights!
😀
So true my friend….so true!
So true my bestie!
Yes!
I honestly love it whenever the debate on Tuvix comes up. Few things in the franchise spark the same level of discussion as Janeway’s decision. But I love it. it’s one of the few examples in the franchise where an episode shows the captain face an actual no win scenario (an actual Kobayashi Maru) and have to make a decision.
If there’d been some easy technobabble way out or self sacrifice on tuvix’s part. It would’ve made the episode/story less and there’s no way it would provoke the same discussion that it does. Honestly love seeing the people actually involved in the episode giving there thoughts.
Doesn’t the transporter keep a record of everyone’s pattern? How about taking some of Tuvix’s unique DNA , saving it, and saving his transporter pattern/record. Then it could be a matter of Janeway saying to him “I must have Neelix and Tuvok back…but we will do everything in our power to find some way to restore you.”
It could end with the promise of bringing him back. And in a future episode they could bring him back using his dna and the transporter pattern and a Neelix having a problem with that as he didn’t give his permission. It becomes an ethical dilemma and debate…one which is resolved with Tuvix’s death because both the transporter pattern and saved dna combination prove to be unstable…and he dies.
Given that neither Tuvok nor Neelix asked to be combined, AND that there was a way to de-combine them, Janeway’s clear responsibility was to do so. Every Trek captain worth a s–t would have made the same decision.
Not Nu-Trek Captains. They would cry and hug and invite the newly combined transporter accident to a brunch with the crew while making sure the audience is told how wrong it would be to give the two people back their separate lives.
Seriously: compare that awful SNW episode about Spock becoming human with “Tuvix.”
The SNW episode ‘Charades’ was meant to be a comedy. I’m not sure we would be talking about Tuvix decades later had it been a comedy episode as well.
For me, this is what I come back to over and over again and why I agreed with her. I’m trying my best trying to imagine Kirk keeping Spock and McCoy combined together after an accident when he just lost not just two of his best friends but colleagues that’s been part of his crew from the beginning. Maybe not EVERY Captain would make the same decision but let’s not kid ourselves, most probably would because in their minds they are simply correcting a mistake that was never suppose to happen. Again you can certainly disagree, but I don’t know how many wouldn’t undo it; especially when you add to the reality no one even knows the long term effects of combing two people into one body. What if they found out Tuvix would simply have serious medical complications later on or simply have a much shorter life span than Tuvok or Neelix had, then what? There are so many questions with this when it’s never been done before and another reason why these decisions become even bigger hand wringers.
It would be interesting to find out if Janeway would have made the same decision had it been Ensigns Smith and Johnson who had been merged in a transporter malfunction instead of a crewmember she was personally close to.
I don’t think it would’ve mattered. Janeway wanted to get everyone home and my guess all as themselves lol. And that’s another thing, imagine getting the ship home and to their families to only discover what happened and now have to deal with basically a completely new person. Everything about this scenario was complicated.
I agree with you that Kirk would have absolutely saved Spock and McCoy over ‘Tuvix”. That does not make it right tho, Tuvix was an accident to be sure but it is something that happened. Splitting him was a deliberate choice. That makes Janeway literally responsible for his death whereas she was not responsible for the loss of Tuvok or Neelix. She is a criminal plain and simple.
And that’s the problem, he was an accident and why the argument still persists. It’s basically arguing whose life should be valued more? Everyone will see it differently especially when you can save the other lives as well. And as said, I think Kirk and most captains would’ve done the same thing. This is a very crazy situation. So we have to agree to disagree but I think people have been doing that with this episode for 28 years now lol. Someone else mentioned it, it is kind of similar to the abortion debate, NOT the same, just in terms of how passionate people are over it but there is no cut and dry answer even if one side believes it. If that was the case, both debates would’ve stopped long ago. That’s what makes it great IMO!
Yeah, but it’s really not so much that they would actually be tried as guilty, it’s just about them showing that they have to have some measure of freaking accountability for their possible crimes. Spock tried to save Pike — court martial. Una lied about her race — court martial. Michael was insubordinate to try to stop a war — court martial and prison. Kirk stole a ship but then saved Earth and the Federation…trial and demotion.
I just would have liked to have seen the writers have the guts to provide some accountability for Janeway’s possible crimes…even though she would likely prevail, it would have been nice to have known that Starfleet took other’s lives who were lost because of her decisions seriously.
BTW, Janeway’s lucky the Delta Quadrant is a long way off — because there are millions of families destroyed from her compromise with humanity’s number one enemy. Where is their justice…from their POV, Starfleet could care less about their sacrifice, because they got the great press and hero worship of a lost starship and captain returning! And not only does the Federation not give a sh*t, they promote the person who did this to freaking admiral?
I also think that being a starship captain — or frankly, in any leadership position — really lends itself to Kantian ethics. As Pike told us back in “The Cage,” the role necessarily involves deciding “who lives, and who dies.”
I so wish we would get some of that weighty Pike back, as we did in DISCO. Now it’s all He of The Dopey Grin.
I will point out that in the Menagerie — the follow-on to the Cage — Spock himself was held accountable with a Court Martial trial…and Kirk, even though he saved Earth, was tried and demoted to Captain for his crimes in Trek III, so he had some accountability. But unlike Kirk Spock — and also unlike Una in SNW and Michael in DSC — Janeway completely avoided any accountability with Starfleet for her possible crimes…free pass!
The fact is she didn’t get into any trouble for a reason; because she was in an unwinnable position and everyone knows it. Captains have to sometimes make the hard call. And as I said in my OP, there isn’t any laws for something like this lol.
I don’t mind ‘Dad Jokes Pike’ (someone called him that on Reddit lol), but I wish he could be a little more serious at times when it at least calls for it and not turn everything into a light moment…but it beats crying. ;)
I like to call him dad Pike myself! 😁
Not every Captain is going to be Kirk, Janeway or Sisko. Some just prefer a softer touch although that would’ve gotten Starfleet into a decades long war with Romulans because Dad Pike wanted to try and get to know the Romulans instead of blasting them out of the stars the Balance of Terror remake episode.
Not every one is equipped to deliver the pimp hand Sisko style…and that’s OK!
Janeway has had to make the hardest decisions on her own being so far away from Federation space and I give her mad respect for it! 😎
I’m not saying I agree with all her decisions… but I would never tell her to her face which ones I do disagree with! 😂
And Tuvix came off as a jerk. I’m not saying he deserved to be killed over it but I lost no sleep over it… none.
And my girlfriend was happy Neelix came back. 🙄
This is such an excellent episode and how awesome it is that we still talk and debate it. Trek needs to go back to this kind of storytelling. In terms of the debate, I think we need to look at it from two different perspectives. From an emotional, humanity perspective Janeway’s decision was wrong but from a logical more military perspective her decision was right. This is the difficult dilemma that leaders in general face, balancing the humanity, emotional side with the logical, disciplined side. I started feeling this more and more when I took on a more administrative role last year in my school and believe me it is never easy. So I can definitely relate with Janeway here. I think there wasn’t a single “right” decision here and Janeway had to make the decision that was “right” for her. I think it actually deepened her character and made her much more stronger. Sometimes I wonder though how the other Trek captains would have handled this situation, I think that is another debate in itself.
In the Mirror Universe, Tuvix lived because he was greater than the sum of his parts…
Here’s a question about Tuvix; he possessed both Tuvok’s logical mind and Neelix’ emotions.
When he went around arguing for his right to live, he was tapping into the latter. But what did his logical mind tell him was the logical course of action?
Did it make more logical sense for him to live or for Tuvok and Neelix to live?
Here’s the thing IMHO. Logic of Vulcans are learned behavior, not something genetic, We saw this when Tuvok was in love and a kid and wanted to reject Logic. Tuvix had no upbringing and thus no training in logic. So this emotions make sense. Add to that the fact that Neelix is probably the most emotional character in all of Trek history.
Someone smarter than me suggested to recreate the event that created Tom Riker. Then split one of the Tuvix’s into Nelix and Tuvok. Morally it still wouldn’t work tho as both Tuvix would still would have the right to exist.
In the end I am just as torn as anyone. But I have to come down on the side of Tuvix. Fate decided the destiny of Neelix and Tuvok. Janeway interfered. As she ALWAYS did throughout the series. For all her talk of Kirk and Spock and Sulu being thrown out of Starfleet if they served in the 24th century, she did abhorrent things (beyond this ep) that they never would have.
I think a really cool way to have ended VOY would have been a two-parter, “The Court Martial of Captain Janeway,” where they reviewed this and the horrendous Borg sellout decision during her time in the Delta Quadrant. And they could have given her some accountability, while still having a happy ending — the result should have been denial of the proposed promotion to Admiral, but allowing her to stay as Captain with a chance of getting the VOY back.
I agree with you but we both know that was never going to happen. Not only was VOY the only trek show on air at the end of its run, Janeway was the first female captain. They would never have put her in that position, even if you and I both know she deserved it.
Unfortunately, I agree.
This is a horribly sexist statement. Every Trek captain has taken controversial decisions, many of them more controversial than “Scorpion.”
And any prosecutor worth her salt is going to take a long, hard look at whether a prosecution over Tuvix is even winnable. The odds of convincing a jury of a prima facie case, much less that no extenuating circumstances applied, would be bleak.
I believe that Ami was talking about from Rick Berman/Brannon Braga’s perspective, not from Starfleet’s. And assuming that’s what he meant, I agree with him — that was a big deal in Star Trek to have the first female Captain, so I do think the lack of accountability for her actions was treated differently by the writers/showrunners/directors — in fact I can prove it:
Kirk, after saving Earth, the Federation Government and Starfleet Command, faced a trial and was demote to Captain for crimes he committed…Starfleet held Kirk accountable!
You see, Bennett and Nimoy thought this through correctly and realized that accountability still must be preserved in Star Trek. Berman and Braga were too chicken-sh*t to give Janeway some accountability for her criminal shortcuts.
No I don’t think he meant it that way either. Amirami is not sexist in the least.
But I don’t think they would’ve gotten very far trying to put Janeway on trial. She’s the first person who explored the Delta Quadrant and lived to tell about it and brought back a lot of data.
And Sisko poisoned an entire planet, that guy didn’t even get a warning over it lol. Did he even get a call from someone not to do it again. I’m pretty sure poisoning planets also goes against the Prime Directive too. I never read it but I’m pretty sure they at least frown against it
But you don’t mess with The Sisko either I guess! 😎
The one I feel sorrier for is Barclay after he read this mission report. Well, him or Troi after Barclay tells her he read this report. It’s a tie…
There is another element to it, which is Janeway had let the issue go on longer then perhaps it might have led to factionalism in the crew over what action to take. Perhaps there is an argument she had some responsibility for that reason to draw the situation to a conclusion quickly.
Should’ve made up a thing where they attempted to split him into 3 people, with a high risk. Then have the procedure fail.
Turning all three into goo puddles on the transporter pad?
That would’ve robbed the episode of the dramatic turmoil Janeway had to endure. Technobabble escape clauses have plagued Trek for years. “Tuvix” managed to face the issue head-on without any such deus ex machina gimmicks. THAT is why we’re still talking about it all these years later!
i feel like TNG would have had picard not kill Tuvix, but then have Tuvix volunteer to sacrifice himself and say he is grateful for the time he had to exist but its selfish of him to exist only by killing 2 others and that life is short and you should appreciate the time we get here and that we should always think of the greater good / others / needs of the many.
having said that the choice VOY made is maybe ahead of its time tv-wise. this is more of an antihero story / arc for Janeway. and that she made this decision with her head not her heart, her protocol not her feelings, that being a captain is making tough unpopular choices and her first duty is to protect her crew and tuvok and neelix were her crew and her responsibility is to save them and ensure their safety
Just repeat to yourself “It’s just a show, I should really just relax”
The irony is I’m always relaxed watching it, but it’s the opposite when discussing it lol.
It never ceases to amaze me that, nearly 28 years after this episode aired, no one, including the writers, seems to have realized what it’s really about. Maybe everyone will figure it out in another 28 years…
Well, are you going to offer up some insight here that may help people “figure it out”?
I admit, for me I can’t really give a fair assessment because I absolutely adore Janeway! I have loved this character for nearly 30 years now and she is still in my top five of favorites all this time and usually agree with her decisions. There has been times I have disagreed like Scorpion where I agreed with Chakotay more but overall I really do love this character and agreed with most of her decisions including this one. But to be more blunt about it, it’s divisive because there is no real world comparison to ever compare it to. What is considered ‘ethical’ is a fine line in a situation like this when I doubt there are any laws in Starfleet to deal with something like this either.
I know this may come off as a cop out for some, but there are plenty of complex issues that will never have one direct answer, period. The world is a much more greyer and nuance place than we see it as and a lot of this falls to our own collective values, culture and so on. That’s why in one county, something like gambling or taking drugs is completely illegal (and even death ;in the case of doing drugs in some places) but it’s the complete opposite in another where people are free to partake in these devices. There is just no right or wrong answers, most of the time, it just comes down to the people who arbitrarily decides what is right or wrong and what the rest of us follow to keep a society just or civil. That’s 90% of all religions out there.
But that’s why this episode is still such an amazing one. I don’t think anyone thought 30 years later we would still be debating it but here we are lol. So much so, Lower Decks revisited the issue last season in its opening episode. It’s a great thought experiment. No one can be proven right or wrong because it’s simply about whose life in the scenario should be given more priority and that will always be the issue because depending on who you ask they can simply interpret it differently as we see over and over again. It’s why Star Trek is such an amazing show when it takes issues like this head on.
Janeway is a literal murderer. She is responsible for the assimilation of entire worlds just because she was selfish and cared more about her tiny crew than an entire quadrant of the galaxy.
a crew she also put in danger by getting into space battles with aliens with more firepower than her ship
Doesn’t that happen in every Star Trek show though? I’m a little confused by this one.
That happened literally every week on Enterprise.
archer putting his underpowered ship-with only hull plating for defence- up against klingons, xindi or other advanced ships never made much sense either.
but both he and janeway should have been more considerate of the safety of their crews
Fair enough!
A. What gets missed over and over again is that Species 8472 was going to wipe out every species in the galaxy after they finished the Borg lol. Why does this tiny little detail gets ignored again and again? They literally told Janeway they were going to eradicate everyone else once they eliminated the Borg. It’s like saying you’re upset that someone didn’t wipe out the Nazis when they literally wanted to do what the Nazi’s planned to do anyway. So what am I missing? Janeway wasn’t just being ‘selfish’ she literally was in the middle of two advanced species trying to wipe out the galaxy and had to side with the less evil one to survive. Not just Voyager, literally everyone else too. Whoever won, the rest of us would lose. Species 8472 weren’t the ‘good guys’ in the story, they hated everyone else as much as the Borg did and made it clear when they literally tried to destroy Voyager lol. Again…what am I missing?
B. Then you can argue Picard was a murderer when he also had a chance to eradicate the Borg in ‘I, Borg’ but didn’t because he became friends with Hugh. They could’ve saved billions of lives as well but chose not to, correct? And that would’ve stopped them from trying to assimilate Spciecies 8472 as well several years later. But he didn’t, right? So is he responsible for the assimilation of entire worlds too?
C. This all became much ado about nothing once future Janeway showed up and literally wiped them out four years later anyway. So she eventually got around to it. ;)
Now if you still disagreed with her helping the Borg at all, then we agree on that. I was always against that as well but same time it was naive to assume all was going to be well in the universe if the Borg lost as stated. I agreed with Chakotay it was a risk and he was proven right lol. But we did get Seven out of it, so I’m not that bothered.
But no, I don’t agree with your argument at all.
It isn’t even a hypothetical. The US and UK allied with “Uncle Joe” against Germany. (Indeed, Churchill said he would ally with the devil against Germany!)
Yes, an amazing real world example. Didn’t occur to me until you mentioned it. And look where we are with Russia today. Didn’t help long term but a bigger enemy (and an even bigger world crisis) was defeated just the same.
And another example from Star Trek itself was the Dominion war when the Federation aligned itself with the Romulans to defeat the Founders. The freaking Romulans that they were in a 200 year old conflict with. And we know what Sisko had to do to get them on their side.
That’s how these things go. Sure I loved watching the Borg getting its ass handed to them lol. It was the first time it had a real foe to contend with. The problem was Species 8472 weren’t going to stop once they were done with the Borg. They had made that clear several times and wasn’t looking to negotiate.
This idea Janeway did something bad is just a head scratcher. Species 8472 came to play and they knew it. Yes it was the Borg’s fault by waking a sleeping tiger but what was done was done.
Now I want to rewatch Scorpion again lol. It’s on the list for this weekend.
they made peace with 8472 in the end
Yeah thankfully they did, but not until after Species 8472 was looking for a way to invade Starfleet more discreetly. But it’s another reminder in the real world most of the countries America and others had conflicts with also became friends after it was over. We became deep allies with Germany, Italy and Japan but been divided with the Soviet Union once WW 2 ended. Just more proof you just never know how these things will shake out in the long term.
I’m guessing the Borg will pretty much stay Russia at this point lol.
I remember taking a bit more of a Kantian position on “I, Borg” when it came out, but in retrospect…yes, I think Picard’s decision was a flawed one. Troi’s argument that “there are no civilians among the Borg” was right.
Yeah, that’s certainly another one that was up for tremendous debate at the time. To make clear, I was on Picard’s side with that one too. I just don’t know how I feel about Starfleet in engaging in wholesale genocide regardless (but yeah it wasn’t the only time they thought about it lol). And yes Starfleet disagreed with his decision as well but they didn’t try to court martial him over it either.
But Star Trek is great when it can work within shades of grey at times because we then get amazing discussions like this thread! And it proves there isn’t always a direct answer.
I actually agree with you as well. Picard should’ve taken them all out but Crusher was constantly in his ear, “But Jean Luc it’s GENOCIDE, blah,blah, blah!”
Pipe down Beverly, he broke the Prime Directive and could’ve been drummed out of Starfleet after saving Wesley from instant death after he murdered several plants!
BE GRATEFUL, SHUT YOUR TRAP AND STOP WHINING ALREADY!!!
Sorry, I go on a rant sometimes.
Also think once they nearly killed Harry, she was like ‘Bleep it’ and looked at them as the enemy from that point on too.
I don’t think Species 8472 left her much of a choice. They were just really pissed off! Sure the Borg was still going to assimilate her crew too but you work with what you got! 😂
But I don’t disagree if she has the chance to wipe the Borg she should’ve taken it but the galaxy would’ve been Bleeped either way.
Scorpion is still one of my absolute favorite episodes. True story, that was the very episode of Star Trek I ever watched so it has a special place in my heart! ♥️
And I have gone back and forth over Janeway’s decision over the years too. But unlike Tuvix which isn’t clear cut at all, this one is IMO.
But it doesn’t mean people can’t question her actions but she helped saved the galaxy against an even bigger a-hole then the Borg. Who thought there would ever be an even worst species out there? 😂🙄
But in weird Star Trek fashion she ended up making peace with them and her future self basically neutered the Borg for the next 30 years so it oddly worked out?
Glass half full kids! 🙂
“But I don’t disagree if she has the chance to wipe the Borg she should’ve taken it but the galaxy would’ve been Bleeped either way.”
I always try to be as fair as I can about all these discussions. And by telling people up front how biased I am for Janeway also shows how fair I’m being lol.
Yes, I do agree Tuvix is a much more complicated issue. Again, I agree with what she did, never had an issue with it, but I can certainly understand why others do obviously. I can’t blame anyone if they wanted to see Janeway locked up over it. But it’s Janeway, a jail cell couldn’t hold this woman if it tried lol.
But the Borg/Species 8472 conflict isn’t as nuance when you’re trying to decide which a-hole has the better chance of wiping out the galaxy and you literally have to side with one of them to defeat the other. That’s just not a great place to be lol. Again, I’m certainly not saying Janeway couldn’t handled it better or shouldn’t have just dismissed any opposing side as she did with Chakotay; but my guess if they did nothing at all Species 8472 would’ve over ran the Delta Quadrant in about a years time once the Borg were gone. Who knows how long until they reached the Alpha Quadrant? And the Federation was still in the middle of the war dealing with the dominion.
Man, Star Trek had some really deadly foes back then lol.
Janeway is a literal murderer. She is responsible for the assimilation of entire worlds just because she was selfish and cared more about her tiny crew than an entire quadrant of the galaxy.
This awful deal with the Borg forced millions of innocents into assimilation. This offense went way beyond violating the Prime Directive given it resulted in effective genocide of entire planets. Even though she viewed it as necessary, at a minimum, she should have faced court martial proceedings when she returned to Starfleet — then she could have made her case. Starfleet botched this by sweeping it under the rug due to the publicity and hero-worship treatment she got for bringing the VOY back…and they even promoted her to Admiral after these major crimes, which bordered on corruption by Starfleet in my opinion — in fact, one might even wonder if the Borg that we saw had already infiltrated Starfleet (which we found out about in Pic S3) had already infiltrated Starfleet enough at the time of the VOY’s return to give Janeway the assist she needed there so as to not bring unwanted attention to this Borg diplomatic victory over the Federation?
Plus in the Tuvix case here, she ordered another person to commit suicide. That’s got to be a Starfleet crime, regardless of whether the person agrees with the order. I mean, can you imagine if in today’s military the shitstorm that would result if a superior officer ordered someone under their command to commit suicide because they thought it best for his team? I think she should have been prosecuted in a court martial for that and that Starfleet should have brought charges on this after VOY’s return — from a legal perspective, I think that would be prosecuted as a murder.
With the Tuvix bad decision, on top of the deal with the devil with the Borg that basically sentenced millions to be a assimilated, her star fell in my view. I was frankly kind of surprised she made Admiral given poor decisions like that. She tended to overthink those big decisions and not go with what she knew was Starfleet-legal. She exhibited too much a cult of personality (I mean look at the fans here who worship her and defend these horrible decisions) with too little accountability regarding her seat-of-the-pants bad decisions while far away from Starfleet supervision.
In fact, she exhibited some of the same leadership character flaws like we saw Commodore Decker and Admiral Marcus in there careers — and those are two great examples of officers who never should have been promoted to captain. So I think, minimally (i.e. if Starfleet was too chick-shit to do a formal investigation/court martial), she should have been held at the rank of Captain indefinitely instead of the promotion to Admiral — which I view as good PR for Starfleet given the great news story of Voyager’s return, with Starfleet brass deciding to sweep these very poor decisions/prime directive crimes under the rug.
The showrunners missed an opportunity to address this at the conclusion of VOY. As we previously discussed, VOY should have ended with a two-parter, “The Court Martial of Captain Janeway,” where they reviewed these and other questionable decisions during her time in the Delta Quadrant. The court martial would have provided the accountability review that needed to happen here, but it still could have had a happy ending that VOY fans could appreciate — the result should have been denial of the proposed promotion to Admiral, but allowing her to stay as Captain with a chance of getting the VOY back…like what happened to Kirk after Trek 4.
Voy not a show know for that kind of self reflection.
No wonder ron moore left after a few months in the writers room
Yea, after writing on DS9 with the legend Ira SB leading the effort, Braga and the VOY writers must have seemed like the The Amateur Hour to Moore.
I actually would’ve loved if Ron Moore stayed on VOY as well.
Maybe he would’ve saved us from whoever wrote ‘The Fight’. 🤮
LOL!
I don’t think you quite know what “literal” means; perhaps you could start by telling us the elements of first-degree murder and applying them to the facts at hand?
Yeah I love Amirami but this argument makes no sense. But if you followed that logic and Janeway decided to let Species 8472 wipe out the Borg but then they go on to wipe out everyone else afterwards then wouldn’t she still be considered a murderer anyway?
I just don’t get it. But it’s fun to discuss it either way! :)
I can’t speak for Ami’s terminology, but if I was the Starfleet JAG, here are the two crimes I would file to support the convening of a formal court martial:
For the Borg Deal with Species Assimilated Case — Criminal Negligence that supports a Crime Against Humanity (i.e. Intelligent Life)
Criminal Negligence is an action so out of the ordinary and dangerous that it’s impossible to separate it from actual intent. It goes beyond a mistake in judgement or being momentarily careless. Criminal negligence claims must create a risk of death or injury, as well as an indifference to human life. A Crime Against Humanity is a deliberate act, typically as part of a systematic campaign, that causes human suffering or death on a large scale.
For the Tuvox case — Aiding or Soliciting Suicide
A person is guilty of aiding or soliciting suicide if he intentionally aids or solicits another to commit suicide, and the other commits or attempts suicide.
Based on Janeway’s actions, these charges should have at least been investigated and then followed up with a formal Starfleet Court Martial proceeding. Janeway and her lawyer would of course provide some of the defenses mentioned by fans posting on this article, and the three judges would then determine if she was guilty or innocent.
If he’s talking about Tuvix, others agree with him including Captain Freeman. Amirami is my best friend but we do disagree on this.
But others do agree with him here and, even in the Star Trek world, so it’s not one sided.
To be honest I thought Tuvix was a jerk so I never lost any sleep about it.
Ok I see he was talking about the Borg situation. That’s not the same to me either but Amirami knows how much I respect him and we just have to agree to disagree. But if she has to murder anyone Neelix would be the top of my list and I’m convinced she would’ve been vindicated by any jury.
the thing that hurt was the ‘re set button’ washing away any consequences for her actions
Exactly! I mean for Christ’s sake, she ordered another person to commit suicide.
That should be a crime, regardless of whether the person agrees with the order, right?
And then it could have affected morale, maybe a maquis would have led objections to her leadership
It must be a breaking of starfleet regs for sure, as bad as Capt Ransom
It must be a breaking of starfleet regs for sure, as bad as Capt Ransom
Yeah, and like that awful deal with the Borg that forced millions of innocents into assimilation, this offense, which should have forced court martial proceedings when she returned to Starfleet get’s swept under the rug due to the publicity and hero-worship treatment she got for bringing the VOY back…and they even promoted her to Admiral after these major crimes — crimes which also violated the Prime Directive.
Too much a cult of personality with her and too little accountability for her seat-of-the-pants bad decisions while far away from Starfleet supervision.
I think a really cool way to have ended VOY would have been a two-parter, “The Court Martial of Captain Janeway,” where they reviewed these and other questionble decisions during her time in the Delta Quadrant. And they could have given her some accountability, while still having a happy ending — the result should have been denial of the proposed promotion to Admiral, but allowing her to stay as Captain with a chance of getting the VOY back.
She literally tortured a Starfleet officer by putting him in a room where aliens were going to attack him. Even in universe Chakotay said she WAY crossed the line. She should not have been promoted when she got home, she should have been thrown in jail and the key thrown away. And this is the person that had th F***** nerve to say Kirk and Spock and Sulu would be kicked out of 24th century Starfleet because now they are too high minded. Screw her.
again the ‘re set’ means that there is no change in how chakotay gets on with his captain in future
Good point — that had not occurred to me.
I definitely agree she did cross the line when she was going to have one of Ransom’s men eaten by the little alien guy. But Sisko also poisoned a planet that had civilians on it because he was super pissed too. Just saying bro!
For the record I’m not condoning either one… but I can understand it. 😉.
I think she said Kirk would’ve been drummed out because he disobeyed orders but I think he saved the galaxy too many times to get the boot. But they all disobeyed orders, minus Janeway for obvious reasons, and stayed so who really knows?
Ultimately, I don’t think Janeway did anything “wrong”; you can’t sacrifice two lives for the sake of one life, which has always been the burden of a “command decision”. In fact, in the TNG episode “Thine Own Self”, Troi was tested on this very principle: could she, in could conscious, sacrifice one life for the sake of others? My only problem with this episode is the way Janeway and the others dealt with the issue, and, really, didn’t find any other options that could have saved Tuvix existence, whether it be cloning (via the transporters or by some other means), or create a holographic entity that could be used as a stop-gap measure, until a body could be created. There was a host of possibilities that could satisfy all parties, and, unfortunately, few were. Ultimately, I get what the producers of VOY wanted to do, but, as a “Trekkie” of many decades, I am disappointed with this episode narratively speaking.
GET A LIFE!