Terry Matalas On Why Janeway And Harry Kim Weren’t In ‘Star Trek: Picard’ And The Fate Of The Enterprise-E

The third and final season of Star Trek: Picard was full of legacy characters and legacy ships, but there were even more considered, according to showrunner Terry Matalas.

More Voyager and DS9 cameos considered for season 3

During a Master Replicas Collectors Club Zoom chat in February, Terry Matalas talked about several other characters they had considered for season 3. One example would have reunited Seven of Nine with her grown-up Voyager protégé Naomi Wildman:

“There was an episode once the Titan was on the run and it needed to hide. And so we had this idea of Seven bringing them to sort of like space Tortuga, like spacedock for pirates where the Fenris Rangers were. And she gets help from an older Naomi Wildman who had also followed in her footsteps as a Fenris Ranger and was a badass. But Seven realizes she sort of created a monster because Naomi had become harder than she was. And so it was it was a Seven/Naomi story. We broke the story and we had reached out to the actress who played Naomi [Scarlett Pomers]. But it just didn’t feel—if you had 13 episodes, you were doing this for sure. But if you had 10, you’re like, ‘I need to get to LeVar.’ It’s time to get there.”

Jeri Ryan as Seven of Nine and Scarlett Pomers as Naomi Wildman in Voyager “Bliss” (Paramount)

The main plot of season 3 led up to the Federation’s Frontier Day celebration with Starfleet assembled for one big event in episode 9 (“Vox”). That episode featured the return of Elizabeth Shelby (Elizabeth Dennehy) from TNG, Matalas revealed the original plan was even more ambitious:

“Harry Kim appeared as the captain of the Voyager-B in the first draft of Frontier Day. But Prodigy was telling a lot of Voyager stories and we didn’t know if Harry was going to appear and we didn’t want to step on their toes. But yeah, for me, I would have had as many as we could get. I would have made that Star Trek Avengers: Endgame. I would have made Frontier Day with many ships… I would have Kira [Nerys from DS9] there, even if all you get is a bridge shot. But all of that is very expensive. We were already way too ambitious.”

Garrett Wang as an alternate future Captain Harry Kim in Voyager “Endgame” (Paramount)

In the final episode, they’d considered reuniting Seven of Nine with Admiral Janeway, her former captain on the USS Voyager, but again, it was a bit too ambitious:

“We had talked about Janeway, obviously, because her name got dropped a bunch of times. But mostly just because she’s the admiral everybody knew. It would have felt like if we had put Janeway in the in the finale—specifically in the last scene where [Seven] is promoted—that was the original idea, she gets a promotion from Janeway, it might have overwhelmed the scene and made it more about Janeway and less about Seven of Nine. And we couldn’t afford Kate [Mulgrew] even if we wanted to. So it all worked out as it was supposed to.”

Admiral Janeway in Prodigy episode 10 (CBS Studios)

The showrunner was happy with how everything worked out and glad to bring back the characters they could. He talked about how there was some pushback from the studio and Paramount+ when it came to his ambitions:

“They got the last two scripts and they were like, ‘How do you?’ We had to start building the Enterprise-D in the second week we turned the key on season 3, because it takes so long. So honestly, the fact that we got away with what we got away with—like Tuvok. I was really glad to get Tuvok, I always loved Tuvok.”

In the end, Tim Russ appeared in two episodes, one as a Changeling infiltrator posing as Tuvok and then as the real Tuvok, who informed Seven of her promotion to captain in the finale.

Tim Russ as Tuvok in “The Last Generation” (Paramount+)

What happened to the Enterprise-E?

Season 3 of Picard had several USS Enterprises. It brought back the USS Enterprise-D from TNG, which Geordi restored at the Starfleet Museum, and introduced the Enterprise-F, commanded by Admiral Shelby on Frontier Day. It also rechristened the USS Titan as the Enterprise-G. What is missing from that list is the USS Enterprise-E featured in the final 3 TNG movies and fully operational at the end of Star Trek Nemesis. According to canon, after Jean-Luc Picard was promoted to admiral and left the ship to take over the Federation’s efforts to help Romulan refugees, Worf was promoted to captain and given command of the Enterprise-E.

USS Enterprise-E

Picard season 3 was set two decades later and turned the fate of the Enterprise-E into a gag, with Goerdi noting the ship wasn’t available and Worf defensively saying it wasn’t his fault, leaving it a mystery. Matalas was asked if he and the writers had worked on what really happened to the E. He said they had ideas but felt it worked better as a gag:

“We had ideas, but in the moment where they’re asking, ‘What about the Enterprise-E?’ it would not have been good for someone to be like, ‘Well, the Battle of duh, duh, duh.’ You are looking at the Enterprise-D! You couldn’t do it and you wouldn’t do it justice, whatever it is. You could say it is in storage or we are repainting it. You could, but I thought, but I thought it was way funnier if they all turned to Worf and he’s like, “It wasn’t my fault.” So everyone is going, “What the hell happened?” That’s way more fun. Somebody can tell that story some day about what happened with Worf and the Enterprise-E but it’s more fun to imagine yourself all the possibilities. Is it lost in an interdimensional rift and it’s still out there somewhere? Was it an accidental self destruct? Who knows? The question is almost better than the answer.”

Perhaps someday the story of the Enterprise-E and why it wasn’t Worf’s fault will be picked up in the books or comics or even on another Trek show.

Worf gets defensive over the Enterprise-E in Picard “Vox”

More from Terry…

See what Terry said about Star Trek: Legacy in his Master Replicas Collector Club chat and check back later for more of what he had to say on roads not taken in Picard seasons 2 and 3.

The Master Replicas Collector Club offers discounts and early access to product releases and more including these members-only Zoom chats with celebrities. The next one will be with Battlestar Galactica star Jamie Bamber.

Keep up with news about the Star Trek Universe at TrekMovie.com.

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I would’ve loved to have seen both Kim and Janeway back in this. IMy girlfriend watched the season literally hoping to see Janeway lol.

But unfortunately they only had so much money. I get it but yeah. Captain Kim on Voyager B would’ve been fun to see as well.

But all said and done these were only going to be cameo roles anyway, so no biggie. And I have a feeling we will see them both in live action again at some point.

I would personally love a Admiral Janeway Paramount+ movie and catch up to her life in the 25th century, especially after the events in Prodigy.

How about a Captain Paris show, or a The Adventures of Kira tv movie, or perhaps a series with Commander Hoshi.

Or, and here’s a wild idea… TELL NEW STORIES WITH NEW CHARACTERS. Push the franchise FORWARD, not backwards. It’s not difficult.

You can do both Emily. They are literally doing both now, hence why Lower Decks and Discovery have only new characters in their main casts and both are (now) Post Nemesis shows so what am I missing?

Also Starfleet Academy will also be in the 32nd century with all new characters, yes? That’s three shows so again what am I missing?

Emily you have gotten past the point of tiring. But then you act like the franchise isn’t actually doing what you keep moaning about when it’s doing that. You can make shows with new characters and you can make shows with legacy characters. Isn’t that what Star Wars is also doing? Funny you never seem as bothered with that franchise literally doing the same thing but you obviously like that more than Star Trek so I guess it gets a pass?

Actually I would love a Kira TV movie as well. That would be super interesting.

‘TELL NEW STORIES WITH NEW CHARACTERS. Push the franchise FORWARD, not backwards. It’s not difficult.”

Starfleet Academy will be be doing this next year. So I’m going to state this again, this literally what you want so stop whining already. Seriously. 🙄

And no one wants it. Because Star Trek of the last few years has trained fans to expect legacy characters. That’s why no one wants Discovery or Starfleet Academy, they want Legacy.

They don’t want Discovery because they think it sucks which last time I checked you think it sucks as well, right?

So are you saying you think it sucks because it doesn’t have legacy characters on it or because you just think it’s a bad show?

If it’s the latter then why do you not give others the same leeway? 🙄

They can actually hate Discovery for other reasons correct. Emily there are thousands of posts of people citing their hate for the show. I don’t think 1% of those thousands of posts has mentioned their lack of TOS characters as to why they hate it.

I will go one farther and say even when they DID get legacy characters in season 2 many still hated the show lol. So that kind of deflates your argument just a bit more correct? Correct Emily?

Do you not understand why it’s become a complete waste of time trying to have a conversation with you ? This is why. Literally this.

Emily you are probably a nice person but you are highly annoying with some of the most binary arguments I have ever seen. You don’t take into account anything else except the same tired mantra. This response has made this clear.

And now please from this point on just ignore my posts. Because in three days I will be repeating this to you like it’s groundhogs day again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

I’m sick of it.

Please stop talking to me. You have become a tedious and over redundant bore. I hate to be this harsh but I just had it. Leave me alone.

Wow. Even though I haven’t posted much, I have been lurking into this forum since the beginning of Discovery and have read thousands of posts, and probably hundreds by Tiger2 alone. And you’re one of the most polite and nice people I have read on forums. If I was the one you were this harsh to, I would have to rethink everything I said and ponder why the heck someone nice like you is that mad at me! (and yes, I do agree with you on all of it).

Also, people seem to hate the idea of Starfleet Academy because Discovery was really bad (for them…and me) and the future Discovery is now a part of is kind of not as interesting as it could be. And while I am one of those who do not want this show, I have to have an open mind.

I mean, when I heard they were doing an adult animation show, I was sure it would be bad. Lower Decks is one of my favorite shows. When I heard they were doing an animation show for kids, I thought it was nice but not for me. Well, that show is also one of my favorites. When I heard about Strange New Worlds, I was really mad that they were doing another prequel instead of going forward. I still hate prequels, but that show is good anyway! When I heard they were making Picard, I was so stoked! I thought it would be GREAT! But it really sucked (until season 3. Still not perfect, but perfectly enjoyable)

Moral of the story: I wish people would judge the final product instead of wasting energy about hating something they haven’t watched yet, and even worse, don’t know anything about it except the setting.

New characters or legacy characters shouldn’t matter. The stories and writing should matter. If a show is good, it’s good.

That being said, that line of thinking makes me really disappointed every time there is a new Discovery season lol But I still hope for the best for the last one!

Thats all entirely fair, to judge somethng once you have seen it. But counterpoint, unless Discovery somehow undoes the destruction of the Federation in it’s last season, I have no interest in the 32nd century in the slightest. Star Trek is supposed to be about how humanity gets better with time, not how a crying baby blew everything up.

Yeah I might have been a little too harsh but I’m only being honest. It’s very frustrating to try and have a discussion with someone who really isn’t here to have a discussion, just to keep repeating the same issue as if we are hearing it for the very first time.. again.

And she has responded to me directly over this dozens of times now in the same snarky tired fashion over and over again. Anytime someone says they like or want to see a legacy character it’s the exact same response (“FANS JUST WANT MORE LEGACY CHARACTERS AND NOSTALGIA”) when A. That’s just not true and B. She contradicts her own arguments time and time again. As I just pointed out she has given plenty of diatribes over her issues with Discovery but then oddly claims other people don’t like it because it doesn’t have legacy characters in it (which I disproved very easily that’s not the case). But then on the other direction she admits to liking SNW and LDS but then accused others of ONLY liking those shows because they carry nostalgia and more legacy characters.


It’s beyond baffling. How can you have a discussion with someone like this when their own argument is contradictory and loaded with fallacies.

But as I said Emily is just here to just rant about having legacy characters not to have a conversation about it. Notice not a single post she has ever made here remotely tries to do any give and take (“Ok I see your point here, but I disagree with you on the other because…”), it’s the same annoying argument no matter what anyone says (“THAT JUST PROVES FANS WANT MORE NOSTALGIA!!) and so on.

I’m sick of it. Some fans are just completely unselfaware with too much tunnel vision. She’s one of them.. It’s warped binary thinking and nothing else it seems. I have made multiple essays (like this one lol) citing her points agreeing with her on some things but disagreeing on others. It’s been a complete waste of time because she doesn’t engage in anything and it’s totally ignored in the next article, so why bother?. I don’t even think she reads anything anyone says. It just always comes back to the same conclusion every time.

And after a year of it, I’m sick to death of it. She can say what she wants, I just want it to be left out of it, that’s all.

And yes we see eye to eye on a lot of these shows. I admit I always been more skeptical of Discovery from the beginning, for being a prequel and just not really fitting into it’s time period very well. Those two issues have been resolved and yet I’m still having issues with it.

Picard I expected to love from the jump but every season has been messy and season 2 easily my worst season of Star Trek ever.
Season 3 was better for sure but I still don’t think was amazing, just better when compared to the new shows. But decent IMO.

I was also skeptical of both animated shows but surprisingly they both won me over very fast. Oddly for me anyway they are probably the most consistent and strongest shows for their formats.

SNW I felt I would like from the start but I was still a little worried about it (especially after Picard lol) and for being yet another prequel. It’s not perfect and the canon issues really bugs me lol but it’s a good show overall IMO and just get back to basics. For me I would rate it around Voyager and Enterprise and I love both of those shows.

And yes people are reacting to Starfleet Academy more negatively because they either not fond of Discovery or the basic premise. I really do feel it’s more the latter than anything.

But end of the day, good Star Trek is good Star Trek. If it’s a prequel or a sequel, filled with legacy characters or totally new ones, NONE of that matters unless it’s just a good show on its own. And if it is people will respond positively to it even if it’s still not their cup of Earl grey.

NO, I don’t want an Academy series because it takes place in the Federation decimated future and I HATE that Discovery did that because of a baby with mommy issues.

‘baby with mommy issues’ I didn’t realize that a kid watching his mother die in front of him and being left alone with a bunch of holograms was something for that kid to just shrug at and ignore.

I must be a a bad parent then for teaching my daughter that she should care about people around her and not just act with apathy towards others.

Care is one thing. Having the power to destroy the galaxy but not having the power to control it is another. Word it any way you want, it was a STUPID plot device.

Personally I’ve no issues with the SFA show. (Apart from it being made by Secret Hideout which has a terrible track record and puts the show in a deep hole to begin with) I DO have issues with it set in the Discovery far future. That was a huge mistake. Feels like it was an attempt to keep the weak Star Trek Discovery characters going. I promise you some will still show up from time to time. One may even be a regular.

But I’m used to really bad ideas from SH.

Thats exactly how I feel. If you want to make an academy show fine. just don’t put it in Discovery’s destroyed future.

> Or, and here’s a wild idea… TELL NEW STORIES WITH NEW CHARACTERS. Push the franchise FORWARD, not backwards. It’s not difficult.

Yes and no — ordinarily I’d agree completely, but Picard Season 3 was a bit of a ‘greatest hits’ retrospective from top to bottom. As much as I wasn’t crazy about that, if there was ever going to be a more appropriate time for things like this to happen, it would be here. :P

How about Star Trek going forward and not just regurgitating movies and series around TOS, it is so tedious. Human Spock, Spock as a woman, singing Spock jeez ffs how bad is it gonna get. 25th century Trek is the only decent Trek so let’s not just keep going backwards. They are stagnating this franchise. Next Star Trek 90210, it just can’t get any worse surely?. A Star Trek show aimed at young adults that just don’t give a crap about it.
Some here might not like Picard S3 but it it is so much better than the awful writing of SNW season 2. Also the characters and acting are much better than any Nu Trek series by quite a margin.

To be fair to her she has complained about SNW revolving door of TOS characters too. So she’s not being a hypocrite but just very very annoying at this point.

I have said the same thing about 50 times now, this is what NuTrek does. It’s not the 90s anymore, competition is more fierce today and Star Trek is behind a pay wall so you have to do whatever to get those subscribers.

There is a lot of fans out there that will only pay for these shows unless it’s a character they knew and grew up with, mostly casual fans.

Shows like SNW and Picard ONLY exist because they know there are old TOS and TNG fans that wants to see these characters back so they are obliging.

But same time they are in fact making new shows with new characters. Right????

I am so tired of having the same conversation about this again and again and again. Especially when you bring this up and it gets ignored until she repeats it again as if we’re talking for the first time.

I am so sick of her and I would have put on ignore months ago now. One guy in another thread was recently brutally slammed because people have gotten sick of having the same tired arguments with them because they just want to argue about useless topics over and over again.

She is no different. No one is forcing her to watch any of it . And I’m just sick of her. I really wish she would just leave me alone. She hasn’t had anything interesting to say since she’s been here. Some fans are just socially inept.

I have said the same thing about 50 times now, this is what NuTrek does. It’s not the 90s anymore, competition is more fierce today and Star Trek is behind a pay wall so you have to do whatever to get those subscribers.

Writing cringeworthy Star Trek…does not appear to have “gotten those subscribers.”

Well since both Picard and SNW have both made it in the top 10 Nielsen ratings multiple times they seem to have gotten at least a few.

But since they are making less Star Trek now and not more of it I guess it’s still not doing enough.

I agree about the shows casting older characters because they are a ratings draw! It’s not about loving it yourself. It’s about acknowledging that it exists. It’s also not just Legacy fans that want these characters to come back. I have heard on multiple different Star Trek sites fans wanting a remake of TOS. I myself don’t want to necessarily see it but that’s ok. The universe is big enough for us all!

I also think it’s important to point out that I don’t think the studios always want the shows featuring the older characters to be popular. I do think the studio wishes they had some other options, hence the Academy show. Actors for that will inevitably be cheaper than ones who have been around since the 90s. I definitely don’t envy the studios. A Star Trek fan is very hard to please!

Yep agreed on all of this. Yes fans just what they want but it’s not just old fans begging for more TNG era but also for more TOS. People want their comfort food.

I mean the fact we are still watching Sty Trek in itself speaks to that. It’s ALL nostalgia, period when you’re discussing a 57 year old franchise. It’s just a matter of degrees of how much nostalgia that’s being enlisted. For many just having a show taking place on a Starship is nostalgic enough. That’s why 5 out of 5 of the shows all take place on one today. At least in the classic era of shows one of them took place on a space station.

If I had it my way, we wouldn’t had any legacy characters back along with no prequels or reboots. No Kirk, Picard, Scotty, Janeway, Kira or Worf. Discovery would’ve been a show that took place in the mid 25th century with all new characters; which BTW many fans actually wanted. Very few were begging for another TOS or TNG redux or begging for it now. Most don’t have a problem starting anew, but many still want any show set in the Prime universe more than anything.

But the realities of streaming viewership dictates nostalgia and IP branding is the name of the game in every known franchise today. They just announced they are working on an X files reboot for Disney+ and a Harry Potter show is being made for HBO Max. None of this stuff will ever go away because yesterday’s childhood is today’s adulthood and everyone is reliving the past regardless.

‘Well since both Picard and SNW have both made it in the top 10 Nielsen ratings multiple times they seem to have gotten at least a few.’

I wonder what some fans will think when Discovery S5 is in the top 10 Nielsen ratings as well.

I mean whenever new episodes of Discovery have aired they are always in the top 10 on Paramount+ and i have no doubt S5 will be in the top 10 again and in the Nielsen ratings too.

Look at Lower Decks that is also in the top 10 on Paramount+ when new episodes air and it did on Amazon too but it never entered into the top 10 Nielsen ratings yet it still has been a big success for Paramount and for the Trek fandom.

It’s seem to me that the narrative that some try to paint that Discovery has lower viewer numbers are painting a false narrative.

I don’t know anything about the Paramount+ ranking because I never seen those. I had no idea LDS or DIS got higher rankings on that site when they aired new episodes. Not a shock but good to know.

And I’m only referring to Picard and SNW because those are the only shows that made it in the top 10 since Star Trek has been included last year. But no I won’t be shocked if Discovery makes it in the top 10 next year, especially because a lot of final seasons actually gets better views when networks/studios market them as such.

And of course it could just be in the top 10 without any of that. I don’t care either way, I just want to like the show more next season as I eventually did for Picard.

They weren’t really measuring viewership of the shows the same way when Discovery was the only game in town, but it seemed to do well for Netflix, and CBS All Access kept growing. Clearly Discovery contributed nicely to that, hence the renewals and our getting 4 more shows, 2 of which made the top 10s for multiple weeks. The shows are objectively popular. It’s no longer a matter of making popular Trek shows to get new subscribers – they’ve probably nabbed all they can. It’s about finding a balance for how to hold onto most of them without having to spend as much as they were when they had 3 big budget live action shows on top of 2 animated series all at the same time.

well said

And I loved both Picard season 3 and SNW season 2 and looking forward to SFA. I actually pretty happy with what we been getting lately and I admit both of those seasons weren’t perfect but satisfying.

I am being cautiously optimistic about SFA but I am looking forward to it just because it is NEW CHARACTERS AND GOING FORWARD! Yeah it could definitely suck but until we just know more I’m being positive.

The irony is for me at least this has been some of the best Trek since the 90s and I have very little complaints these days. I love seeing all the legacy characters and really hope we get more but excited for any new characters as well.

I’m a happy camper. I’m hoping Discovery season 5 will continue my high and not kill it but I’m not as hopeful about that show sadly.

Good for you, I I have to admit Star Trek is more diverse than it has ever been. But to me now it is pretty awful and I have no optimism for any Star Trek Discovery spin offs let alone a teenage sit com Academy Discovery spin off. And those spin offs are no better than Discovery. SNW is just awful Sci Fi for me, the writing is utter crap, low time for Trek. It is sit com trash.
Tbh there are so many better Sci Fi series than Trek right now so it’s not a big thing that Star Trek is crap right now.

And that’s totally fine. Some people take this stuff far too personally or seriously. They are just TV shows. If you gave them a shot but still hate them then yeah move on.

I have never hated a show. I think some have sucked lol but that’s a big difference from outright hating something.

If I hated something I wouldn’t be paying to watch it period and wouldn’t care it got cancelled. But I just want them to improve more than anything. And at least in my view in terms of NuTrek most of it has. But others like you see it differently and that’s completely valid.

I agree, but the hatred for Discovery and the love for SNW is mind boggling. SNW is not a better written series, it is just a nostalgia fest. I hate reboots and what Trek is doing now. I would not watch a TNG and DS9 reboot as it is Hollywood laziness. Like Emily said we need new characters and at least Discovery had that. I have more time for that than reboots or consistent prequels which is the staple for Trek right now.

It’s an interconnected sci-fi universe that’s been made over the course of nearly 60 years with an unbroken line of continuity. Even the “reboot” films are directly connected to these shows. That allows for all sorts of stories to be told – catching up with old characters and exploring new ones and new time periods and places. That’s a huge privilege, and since really only Star Wars and Doctor Who have a similar unique status, it’s not like there’s a ton of templates on the “right” way to grow and keep the franchise relevant, fresh, and appealing.

Star Trek is threading the needle rather well IMO. Discovery and Starfleet Academy mine a new time period. Picard, Prodigy and Lower Decks explore the post-TNG timeline, the latter two especially differently than Trek has ever done before. Strange New Worlds mines prequel territory. There may be old characters in the mix throughout, but they are accompanied by plenty of new ones. I think these shows are all different enough and favor a diverse Trek audience while still being able to appeal to us all. Whether the individual quality is judged to be up to snuff is another matter, but I prefer to think I’m lucky to even be able to consider scoffing at the idea of a DS9 continuation. So many other shows and movies never got to have all the possibilities Trek does as such a successful franchise.

You’re also right about just moving on. There is nothing wrong with just loving the shows you grew up with. If it’s making you miserable don’t feel the need to keep going! Focus on what makes you happy in Star Trek. If you do keep going try not to focus so much on the little things. Most importantly though try to keep the expectations low! The opinions on what makes Star Trek great vary widely! So never assume that they will ever meet what you have in mind.


I have to agree. Anything based in the baby federation killing Discovery timeline is a no go in my book. I’ll check it out but I have no expectations to like it.

Where did you hear about a female Spock being in the works? And Spock has always been half human? Additionally, Spock has both played musical instruments and sung before in Star Trek?

I’m pretty much on board with all you said there, Hammers. Right on.

Also wouldn’t Legacy be pushing the series forward and not backwards. SNW and the 2 animated series are the ones pushing the franchise BACKWARDS . Emily you just dislike TNG but your arguments have no substance. Picard was the only series pushing forward in my eyes.

TNG is my favourite tv show of all time.

And in what world is Picard S3, with *yet another* plot about the Borg, and cameos from Ro, Tuvok, Moriarty, Shelby and lots more ‘pushing the franchise forward’? They literally, copied the final scene of All Good things and just did it all over again. Season 3 couldn’t have bIt’s all so pathetic.

You think bringing the Enterprise-D back (via some nonsensical explanation) was pushing the franchise forward? Come on. Think!

We get it. You hated Picard you hated bringing back legacy characters. You do not have to mention it everytime an article appears. This is getting beyond tedious- and whatever you point you are trying to make has gotten hopelessly lost behind this caricature you’ve created. It’s beyond boring and it’s time for you to log off.

This article literally talks about legacy characters. I mean its an interview with Matalas, so what else is he capable of talking about, but if this isn’t the place to bring it up, where is?

Took the words out of my mouth

Its pushing the franchise forward because it is in the 25th century instead of the 24th. You say you love TNG as a metric but TNG had McCoy. Spock, and Scotty. Where is the difference?

Oh please, looking to the past as much as they did far outweighed the fact that it took place in the 25th.

TNG had McCoy, Spock and Scotty in ONE episode each out of 178. That’s the difference.

That’s not much of a difference at all when you consider modern streaming shows get 10 episodes per season at best and not the 20+ eps of TNG. And that none of the modern shows will ever get to 7 seasons. Also, I was referencing McCoy, Scotty and Spock specifically but the ties to TOS go WAY beyond that. Heck they practically duplicated a TOS episode with the Naked Now.

TNG legacy characters feature in 1/3rd of Star Trek Picard.
TOS legacy characters feature in 1/60th of TNG. And a third of them was literally a two minute scene.

Again, TNG had the benefit of twice the number of episodes per season at the very least and ran for seven seasons which Modern streaming Trek will never do. So your ratios make no sense because the numbers are not similar across shows.

Also, what is even the big deal about bringing Ro or Tuvok back? Ro was ONE episode and Tuvok was one a literal two minute scene.

Besides, in universe, those cameos make sense. I can believe that Ro was let back in Starfleet after DS9 and Voyager vindicated the Maquis and the Cardassians nearly wiped them all out. Tuvok makes perfect sense because of Seven. Really, the only Picard character that doesn’t make sense is Data. The dude has died multiple times and keeps coming back for the most ridiculous reasons. THAT is the character I would be complaining about!

Moriarty’s cameo felt pointless to me, that I admit.

I’ve seen arguments lamenting that the Trek shows weren’t doing *more* crossovers when TNG seasons and movies, DS9, and Voyager overlapped at various points. That sense of regret seemed to peak when the MCU was all the rage, showing audiences could lap that up without difficulty and it could bolster storytelling opportunities. Rick Berman didn’t even want to see the Enterprise E on TV. Did that really benefit anyone?

Umm, you failed Maths didn’t you. The ratios are absolutely comparable.

I’ll put it another way so you can maybe understand….

TNG legacy characters feature in 20/60th of Star Trek Picard.
TOS legacy characters feature in 1/60th of TNG.

20x more legacy characters in Picard than TNG.

Ro on her own, fine, Tuvok for one scene, whatever, but Shelby, Moriarty, Lore, Matalas wanted even more cameos. It’s all just so pathetic.

TNG ended 30 years ago. At that time there was only 79 episodes of TOS and 6 movies to call “legacy” and be nostalgic about. We’ve been blessed with hundreds more hours of Star Trek with an unbroken continuity over three decades. It’s not realistic or even in the franchise’s best interests to say it shouldn’t revisit any of its past stories or characters in various ways. Picard season 3 was a unique reunion event. Why not take it for what it was and enjoy seeing beloved characters back for one more ride? That’s better than practically shaming us by insinuating we’ve been brainwashed to expect and like that kind of nostalgia all the time. If it’s not a one off and they keep doing this for other shows then sure that’s a concern – but how Lower Decks and Prodigy handle callbacks and legacy characters is different than Picard, as is what Discovery and SNW did. And they’ve all contributed interesting new characters, ideas and narrative threads to Trek lore along the way.

It’s fine to be wary of how much the franchise leans on nostalgia and uses old characters for shortcuts, but it’s wrong to dismiss everything out of hand because Trek’s giant interconnected past is getting referenced and leveraged. There’s no one to be upset for – Trek is trying all manner of different approaches to storytelling with every show and there’s something within that for every fan new and old.

32nd Century is doa. In my opinion, the 25th interests me though.

I this is a bigger issue. People want to see more of the 25th century then the 32nd. Yes part of it has to do with having more legacy characters. The other part is that the 32nd century has been a crushing bore to many people and I’m one of the few who likes i

Seconded. I HATE the 32nd century where a crying baby destroys the Federation. Most ridiculous plot I have seen of not just Star Trek but any show EVER!

Sign me up for the Kira TV movie.

Your ‘wild idea’ has been happening. And your mileage may vary with those, imo.

Devotion to canon? You are alot of fun Emily!

Emily on the money here.

Agree 🙂

I don’t know why there is a resistance in giving an update to the stories of previous characters. Based on your attitude on this matter, we wouldn’t have had the movies featuring Kirk and crew, and THEY are the reason the franchise is as popular as they were, which warranted an update. PICARD, season 3, did a good job at doing an update, and reminded the fans as to why the TNG cast/crew are still as popular now as they were when first introduced.

Honestly, I kind of hope they never reveal the fate of the E, because referring to it vaguely like that going forward feels like an inside joke.

Yeah I’m not bothered by it either. That said you know in a year we will probably get a Worf novel that will chronicle that storyline lol.

Which is fine because I don’t consider books canon and won’t likely read it.

But you’re right.

It would be a bummer if the fate of the E was revealed in a novel, but I can see that happening…😞. I would ignore it.

*Sigh* These capital ships, which were once almost regarded as characters in their own right, have become so disposable that their ultimate fate can be brushed aside with an offhand joke. And a fairly lame offhand joke at that.

Shoot, even I, MUDD has got accurate though humorous references to the E being a lady and that they love her! I think I like that show more than most of you (mainly for the Spock/McCoy exchange at the top of the teaser, which was, amazingly enough, left off the CBS video club VHS.)

This demystifcation of the ship has got to be an offshoot of Harve Bennettization of Trek, where you crash one copter, you get in another one and keep going.

Yeah, that’s how Bennett described it when talking about Roddenberry’s negative reaction to the destruction of the Enterprise in TSFS, as a generational thing. During the Second World War, bomber pilots like Roddenberry gave their aircraft female names and decorated them with bawdy insignia. In the Korean War that Bennett (and my father) fought in, a plane was just a plane.

I wouldn’t place that on Bennet. It was shocking and a gut punch then. The problem came when it was repeated in Generations then Beyond. Then we get the complete creativity gap from Secret Hideout… The only difference there was there was less of an attachment to those ships. In the case of the D I was actually applauding it’s demise!


I agree with this, Roddenberry especially considered the Enterprise to be one of the main characters in the show and even gave it a she pronoun. I think the modern makers of Trek kind of want to stay away from humanization of technological things as much as they can or just see this extensive technological development to be a bad thing in general. This is partly why I believe they went with the destruction of the federation idea for 32nd century. In fact Roddenberry’s other show Andromeda had avatars of the ships so it was kind of the ultimate end-point of Roddenberry’s idea of the ship having its own personality/character.

I’m not so sure whether it’s a conscious effort on the part of the producers to de-emphasize technology or not. But now that I think of it, it is striking how little Trek productions utilize the “computer voice” as compared to TOS, even going back to the TNG era. In this era of increasingly sophisticated voice-activated AI you’d think it would be precisely the opposite.

Y’know, it might be a wonderful idea to have future writing staffs actually old story memos and writer guides to mine them for the parts that would still be of use going forward.

Plus go back to the FOR THE UNIFORM ep of DS9 to see how much fun it is to do scenes where orders have to be repeated and transmitted manually. If you’re going to go no-tech, really do it (like if they’d done VOYAGER without the endless shuttles and power to run the holodeck) for a stretch, then you have appreciation for the tech when you do go back to it.

Matalas wanted even more legacy characters, because of course he did. Cringe-tastic.

Cry more.

Cry? I’m laughing. It’s hysterical.

Given that S3 was supposed to be a one-off reunion, the legacy actor appearances were fine by me. Now when someone next tells me that we next have to use one of the precious new Star Trek series slots up for a whole series with a legacy flavor, and that Jack character who never worked for me — that’s when I agree with you 100%

I get your point – and agree, to a point.

But, by Season 3, this particular series needed all the cameo help it could get.

He hoped that the legacy characters would hide how devoid the show was of any original thinking. It did not work

I’m kinda on a similar page there. The cameos from known characters seemed to me to be little more than shiny objects to distract from the very weak story they put together. Well, the 2nd half at least. That first half was actually decent. Too bad they didn’t leave it with that and flush out the Founders situation and ignore all the Borg garbage.

To me the only way that should have been done was as a huge event with as many DS9’ers and Voyagers included as possible. And try to give every one of them something important to do.

Also, the idea of turning Naomi Wildman into yet another cliche “badass” warrior woman would have just been tired. Too bad the writers at SH weren’t capable of coming up with something more unique and interesting.

While I would’ve gotten a kick out of seeing live-action Janeway again, I had always assumed the Jeri Ryan/Kate Mulgrew mutual dislike might’ve been the reason why Mulgrew didn’t make a cameo. Have they appeared anywhere together in recent years?

This has been settled long long ago now. Mulgrew apologized to Ryan and they are friends now. They appeared together at conventions for several years now.

I always bring up the fact half the TOS cast hated Shatner for decades, especially George Takai. It didn’t stop any of them appearing in seven movies with the guy, countless conventions and other appearances from commercials to video games.

This is Hollywood, it happens all the time. Most put aside their differences and just do the work.

Yes they have and all is fine now, so I’m sure that wasn’t the reason.

Although I get Terry’s reasoning (besides the money thing), I still feel
Janeway would’ve been a better choice than Tuvok as it was Janeway who liberated Seven from the Collective and to have her finally promote Seven to captain would’ve been so fulfulling (full circle – pun intended) and emotional.

That’s long, long, long since been resolved as far as I’m aware.

I think the Enterprise E is most likely in quarantine and infested with tribbles. I hope we get a “Lower Decks” episode explaining this!

…at least that would be an on-screen explanation.

HA! We already had a Prodigy ep explaining it. The E-E was in the battle n the season finale of that show and got decimated. How the powers that be don’t know this, I have no idea.

The question is almost better than the answer.” – I don’t love everything TM has done but he’s spot on w/ this statement. Something prequel-ers could learn from

It’s not even that original. It reminded me of what DS9 did when Worf was asked about the Klingons in Trials and Tribbleations. Again, the question was better than the answer and was great that Worf didn’t explain it. I found it entertaining then. The redo… Not so much.

Yes, exactly. Agreed.


> But Prodigy was telling a lot of Voyager stories and we didn’t know if Harry was going to appear and we didn’t want to step on their toes.

That’s completely fine, but do the Prodigy folks not have, say, a telephone? Kinda bounce the idea off them. Maybe they’d integrate it into their own plans. I know the timing probably doesn’t work out, as far as writing, since this stuff can be years out, but I’m just kind of surprised at how often I hear how… isolated… these folks seem to be on a series of shows that take place so close to each other temporally.

Exactly. Not only that it was reported that all the show runners get together every year to discuss their storylines and what potential legacy characters they plan to use and in what way.

That’s literally why Okona had an eye patch on Lower Decks because McMahan has a discussion with the producers of Prodigy and told them they were going to use the character and he lost an eye so it was incorporated on his show as well.

So I’m very confused why this wasn’t brought up with them, especially since we don’t know if Kim will be on Prodigy. And unless they planned to kill the character or something I think they could’ve had a conversation and work something out.

That’s completely fine, but do the Prodigy folks not have, say, a telephone?

Just maybe all of this is yet another argument against cultivating Star Trek series like mushrooms.

Quality, not quantity.

oh you had to go and bring up mushrooms…..

The most important thing would be following up on project Phoenix, and giving Kirk a better fate. I don’t even care if it’s animated like prodigy. I really would love to see that story.

Not every character needs to go out in a blaze of glory. He helped save an entire planet. That’s enough.

I’ve never had the problem with Kirk’s death that most have. Honestly I thought it was fine.

Same. Maybe HOW he died could’ve been better but I never had a single issue with the intent or the outcome. He’s been dead for literally 30 years now in real time and the Star Trek timeline. The franchise has moved on long ago.

I had no issues that Kirk was intended to die, but HOW it happened is what I have issues with. Kirk deserved the same end that Spock had in ST II. The problem was Berman’s ego and the fact that the writers produced a subpar script after having been exhausted from writing both Generations and All Good Things at the same time.

I didn’t mind that Kirk died, but on a bobsleigh ride? That’s pretty underwhelming lol

I thought it was Home Depot scaffolding…lol

OMG, YMMV, but that was one of the lamest death scenes in movie history. Just unforgivable, lazy writing. And Malcom McDowell said so as well — in fact, he could not believe that Shatner or somebody on set did not speak up about it.

Shatner should have never accepted to do that movie. Even the test audiences tore it apart.


I have to agree with this, as much as I hated the way they took JTK out. And it was 30 years ago now. It’s over. It’s canon. It sucks.

It’s canon that Spock died. It doesn’t mean he couldn’t come back

Not every character, but Captain Kirk — yes, if he has to die in a movie, then it 100% needs to be in a much more meaningful way than Bridge on the Captain.

Look at the way Spock died — that’s how you do it.

Not even close. Kirk’s death was so bad that “dropped a bridge on him” became a hollywood saying for a character that is unceremoniously offed. I feel quite confident in this particular case to say you are in the minority in your view of Kirk’s death. Also, Berman originally had it planned to have Kirk literally shot in the back. It’s pretty clear where the powers that be were with that character.

100% !!!!!

> That’s way more fun. Somebody can tell that story some day about what happened with Worf and the Enterprise-E but it’s more fun to imagine yourself all the possibilities. Is it lost in an interdimensional rift and it’s still out there somewhere? Was it an accidental self destruct? Who knows? The question is almost better than the answer.”

Good call; and it also had the advantage of being almost a spiritual callback to “we do not discuss it with outsiders” as a hand-wave in the face of a huge question.

Of course whether it’s follow-up on Enterprise where they actually answered the question was a good idea or not is up to you. Personally, while it was completely unnecessary and probably unwise, I thought they did a decent job crafting a story out of it.

So while I hope they never answer where the E went, I’m not above entertaining an interesting story about it should one happen to crop up some day.

Cancel everything. Give Matalas all the money. Give him creative control. He gets it.

And let’s get Shatner back. The chances of this happening are getting ever slimmer.

He gets what exactly? How to involve legacy characters at the expense of pushing the franchise forward?

It’s so pathetic how Trek has stagnated these past few years, and how fans don’t even care.


FIVE shows in production at one time is Stagnant?

You don’t understand the definition of that word do you?

I agree Star Trek is stuck in its own past. Have we seen a single show in the past 7 years that wasn’t full of references and callbacks? Nope. Disco S1: the entire thing, callbacks. S2, more so. S3 and 4 actually push the universe forward, but half the fans despise the show and don’t care anymore. Picard S1-3: laden with references. Lower Decks: nothing but references. Prodigy: Voyager sequel. SNW: all references. It’s just pathetic. Where is quality, original writing in Star Trek these days? Answer: nowhere to be found, and won’t be for a while.


I don’t know why I have to keep reminding people of this but you just described every Trek show ever minus TOS. TNG had McCoy, Spock, and Scotty. DS9 had frequent crossover eps with TNG and a revisit of Trouble with Tribbles. Voyager started at Quark’s Bar and had Sulu. Enterprise (pathetically) had it’s series finale with Riker and Troi. Enough with the bad “stuck in it’s own past schtick. It’s old and boring.

I don’t know why I have to keep reminding people of this but you just described every Trek show ever minus TOS. TNG had McCoy, Spock, and Scotty. DS9 had frequent crossover eps with TNG and a revisit of Trouble with Tribbles.

I disagree quite strongly. McCoy’s appearance in TNG was a cameo that lasted what, two minutes, and was intended to act as a symbolic passing of the torch. Scotty’s episode was one out of about 200, as was Spock’s. Moreover, “Unification” was hardly steeped in nostalgia. It featured (1) Sarek dying of dementia, and (2) Spock at least facially defecting to the Romulans.

Much the same was true of Picard’s appearance on DS9. It was the passing of the torch, and it featured the new captain, Sisko, with a *chip on his shoulder* against Picard, at that. “Trials and Tribulations” was again one episode out of about 200 and intended to celebrate a milestone anniversary for the franchise. (Bashir’s appearance in one TNG episode and Quark’s in another were more gratuitous and unnecessary, but they were mercifully short.)

It was never remotely the all-nostalgia, all-the-time crossover fest of modern Star Trek.

it’s also stagnant in that there seems to be a complete lack of moral, meaning, and message in the new episodes, less so with SNW, but there’s not a ton there. It’s all plot plot MacGuffin, plot. Disco and Picard are really just action movies drawn out across 10 episodes. That’s not really the heart of Trek imo

I’d say Discovery hammers home morality and messaging quite a bit amidst the action, it just doesn’t always do it very artfully.

TNG literally copied a TOS episode with the naked now. There were several references to the OG Enterprise. the Enterprise D was a spiritual continuation of the idea of the Enterprise A, etc… McCoy might have been there for a hot second but Relics was centered around Scotty and Spock has a brief appearance in Unification and starred in Unification II, which in turn was a slight tie in to Star Trek VI.

Also As I have pointed out to others here, TNG had over 20 eps per season and seven seasons, neither of which is ever going to happen on a modern day show. So of course the cameo type characters are going to stand out more in a show which has WAY less content.

And I even forgot to mention Sarek who mind melded with Picard and had a forever influence on him.

DS9 had a bit more in the crossover department though. Q, Vash, Worf, Gowron, Tom Riker, Tuvok, Kurn, Alexander, Lursa and B’Etor.

Beyond the pilot crossovers, Voyager additionally had Q, Riker, Troi, Barclay (a lot), Sulu, Rand, the wayward Ferengi from The Price, the Borg Queen, and Geordi.

It was all over the span of way more episodes than the new shows, but at the time the only thing I raised an eyebrow over was how often Troi and Barclay kept showing up on Voyager. I am fine with interconnectedness. I think the small universe problem is more confined to shoehorning Spock into Discovery and bringing back so many TOS characters for SNW right down to having a relative of Khan in the crew.

TNG featured McCoy, Kirk and Spock and even the second episode was a complete remake of a TOS episode. Was that pathetic?

THIS! As I have reminded others, the TNG ep with Spock wasn’t just a Spock cameo, it directly referenced ST VI when Undiscovered Country was in theaters. DS9 had not only TNG crossovers but Trials and Tribulations. VOY had the Star Trek VI reference was will with Sulu. Enterprise (admittedly badly) had Riker and Troi in it’s series finale. But somehow most if not all of that was acceptable while modern Trek shows are being blamed for measuring it’s success on nostalgia. News flash, THEY ALL DID THAT!

TNG never showed Kirk. It mentioned him, causally in passing, twice. It showed McCoy for less than two minutes. And the Spock it showed was a serious character study of a radically changed, wizened, 80-years-later historical figure — not a theater-of-the-absurd farce of him mounting a saddle and shouring “Riker manuever” as if he were doing a poor imitation of Slim Pickens.

That wasn’t Spock, that was Boimler.

Spock’s appearance in Unification I and II wasn’t just ended there. His role forever changed the Romulans, even for Star Trek 2009 and Star Trek Picard. It’s not just the amt of screen time or mentions a character has, it’s the influence. And Spock influenced the 24th century more than most of the TNG cast did. The TOS influence on TNG is undeniable.

Yeah, The Naked Now was pathetic, I would say.

As for the characters, I thought the appearance of McCoy was short and sweet — exactly how these things should go. But I’m not a fan of TNG’s use of Kirk or Spock. Generations was a mess and poor Nimoy had a stilted contractual obligation look all over his face in Unification.

So, about two-thirds “pathetic,” I guess. But maybe underwhelming is a better word.

How exactly is the 25th century not pushing the franchise forward? The last time we had an all new set of characters in live action we got Discovery. And that worked out soooooo well! /s

The best I think we could hope for from Shatner would be a voice role now – even though he looks fantastic for a 93 year old – and even then it would probably have to be a flashback or holodeck thing. My favorite character of not only Trek but any television show, but I feel that ship, and HIS ship, has sailed.

Shatner has already done a lot for the franchise. So I think it’s maybe better to let someone else stand in the spotlight for a bit.

What exactly will Shatner be doing? Hosting a documentary?

It wouldn’t be the first time.

He gets nothing

Except how to make an emmy award winning show that has re energised a franchise.

The thing is though with a show called Picard you kind of expect these callbacks, as a concept it can never be a fully original show because it deals with a character we’ve seen for 7 years before. This is a general symptom of the loss of creativity in the entertainment sector in general. I mean what was the last truly original show or movie you watched in the last 10-15 years? I can’t even remember. Discovery had the right idea but lacked in the execution department. Discovery created some cool original characters like Lorca, Tyler, Saru, Stamets, Reno, Kovich, Admiral Vance etc… but haven’t managed to used them as effectively as they could, instead focusing mostly on the needless emotional stuff for the most part.

Okay I totally get that Janeway was being considered for a cameo. But then after that you absolutely have to go to Nana Visitor next, who unlike Kim played a major character, and who also has been so great to the fans over the years, and would still look and perform fantastic and her iconic role as Kira.

In fact I’d put Nana first in line given Janeway is already on an existing Star Trek show. And although I really enjoyed Ro showing up in that great cameo, they easily could have figured out a way for that character to have been Kira instead in that role — again preferring a major character over a secondary one and getting a DS9 original main cast member involved.

You know, they only have so many slots to bring back some of these older actors who played major roles in past Star Trek series, so I think Kurtzman and company should be bringing back characters that aren’t already on one of the existing series — and also major characters need to be in the front of this line before they get to supporting characters.

No. Kira had no prior history with Picard. Ro did. That was absolutely the right call.

Well for me that was a relatively minor scene. You may differ, but I’m not one of those fans who was always hoping for a Ro-Picard reunion to heal their relationship.

I have mixed feelings about how Picard handled most of the DS9 stuff. I definitely wanted to see more of the characters considering that the story dealt with the Federation/Dominion war. There was a whole scene where they showed Odo and talked around him but never said his name! It was quite weird. On the other hand, the ending of DS9 was so great, I am not sure I need to see where the characters are now. I am okay with how it ended and that’s saying a lot for any tv show.

I am not surprised that the budget played such a huge factor in who they could and couldn’t get. Some people are just going to be beyond what you can afford. So it’s better to focus on what you can. I do think the storyline with Naomi would have been quite interesting given that when we last saw her she was quite gung ho for the Federation. I wonder how coming home changed all of that? It would have been nice to see Harry Kim get promoted and actually get some future info on him. Although I am glad they did manage to get Tim Russ. I always liked his portrayal of Tuvok and was disappointed that his storylines seemed to drop off after a certain point in time. Also Tim and Jeri had great chemistry on screen. Not the romantic kind just the co-workers kind and yet it really worked. So it was nice to see it briefly in Picard.

I would have loved to see a ds9 character (IMO Worf doesn’t count). Instead we got a vague reference to Odo at best. But this was a season about Changelings. No one knows more about them than Kira!

Good point on the Changelings — that seems so obvious a great fit for Picard S3 now that you’ve brought it up.

Yuppers, Kira literally melded with a changeling (Odo). She came closer to knowing the Great Link than any solid ever has!

Also, ironically, Kira was originally intended to be Ro in DS9 till Michelle Forbes turned down the offer.


I expected Captain Kirk to be in season 3 revived, either working for the Borg against Picard or working for section 31.

Well Matalas did say that the scene with Kirk’s revived body in status was inspired by the Shatnerverse, in which exactly what you talk about happened.

You know, given Shatner said he’s be OK with a future AI version of him being created so long as his family is compensated — this kind of gives the plot device for that to happen, right?

Heck, if he is fine with it who are we to argue LOL.

You can’t get ten pounds of s**t in a five pound bag, that’s why….

Considering bag sizes are based on volume, not weight, I could see some very dense s**t weighing 10 pounds fitting into a bag designed for 5 pounds of typical density s**t. For example, Mountain Lions have the most dense s**t of all mammals.


Hope you can swing back around to Star Trek someday, Terry.

You’ve got plenty of time. You’re 48 but you look 27 FFS. (What the hell.)

I’m satisfied with what we got in S3. My head canon did have Harry Kim commanding Voyager-B.

I doubt Kate and Jeri would do a scene together, especially with their past conflicts. But, money talks.

Kate apologized to Jeri and they appear together often, what are you on about?

If you needed to free up time for Naomi, might I suggest getting out of the nebula one episode sooner?

…..or ditching episode six entirely.

I love the way this guy thinks. He tried to get everyone he could in S3 without sacrificing story or breaking the budget. Leaving the fate of the Ent. E ambiguous was a smart and intriguing move. His love for the franchise is contagious, and he knew he had just one season, one shot to arrange a proper send off for the TNG crew, and imo he did so in spades. I was happy with every cameo we received. I know this is a divided subject here, but I for one would love to see what Terry would do with more time and resources. Cheers!

and you must have watched a different S3 to everyone else

Clearly. Me and hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people as well, apparently.

Why do you think you speak for “everyone else?” You don’t. The season had it its flaws, but S3 was a heck of a ride.

There was a story?

I’d say 7/10 of it had a story. Then they completely dropped it and went off the rails at the end.

I’m glad that budgetary reality reigned Matalas in. This was supposed to be a send-off for TNG, not an occasion for endless cameos from VOY and DS9. Harry Kim was a peripheral, bland character in any event and would have detracted from the series. Frankly, I could have done without Tuvok’s cameo as well.

Seven, of course, is a bit different; as an ex-Borg, there was indeed a great untold story about her meeting Locutus, and I’m glad we saw it. Had Auberjonois still been with us, an Odo appearance would have been organic, too.

I agree. Star Trek has long suffered from small universe syndrome. Additonal cameos would have only added to the problem.

Small universe syndrome is something plaguing the franchise. With the exception of this thread’s premise, of course. Just my opinion, lack of confidence, experience and depth in the writing. We keep going back to Kirk, Spock, etc., prequel, prequel. And any new character (mostly) is one-dimensional and just there to satiate a studio’s obligation. Sorry, this may get some blowback. Cheers.


Though I enjoy the occasional familiar guest star (Scotty in TNG, Sulu in Voyager, Ro in that one episode of Picard), there is a limit, just like with everything. It can work when it’s done strategically and organically. But the way a lot of recent Treks have done it, I don’t know, seems to me like they’re shaking the old Star Trek Encyclopedia and seeing what falls out.

I loved the way how TNG era shows use to handle their legacy cameos, where it was a tradition to have a cameo from a previous show in the pilot episode of the new show (In fact Stargate continued this tradition too) I wished the new shows would do the same, just get their cameos for the pilot and for the rest of the show maybe only small mentions or appearances.

Yep, exactly.

That would mean no Ambassador Spock and no Romulan Unification, no Star Trek 2009+, etc… You are underestimating the importance these cameos can have.

Oh the cameos did have importance, but also the point was not that. The point is that they were generally used as sparingly as possible. Of course the bigger problem here seems to be that serialized 10 episode arcs don’t seem to suit Star Trek in general. It needs to have at least 13 episodes, even if it is serialized.

It’s not just franchise fatigue but it’s a generational aspect that all the producers now “grew up” with the legendary characters. So they have opportunities to work with those charatcers in ways the producers before never did. It’s not just a cash grab, it’s genuine. Just… as in relationships, I had a rule: never go back.

That’s all well and good. But show me a franchise that doesn’t do this? I remember a time when Friends, Mad About you, and Seinfeld all crossed over with one another and put all of those characters in the same universe. I didn’t see any complaining when Paul Reiser was Kramer’s land lord or Hellen Hunt saw Lisa Kudrow (Phoebe not Ursula) at Central Perk.

I don’t think anyone is making the case that Trek should never do this, rather it’s about how they go about it, and how often. And lately, in my opinion, they’ve been drunk on cameos and references. It’s all a bit sweaty and pandering, like one of those sitcoms you mentioned back in the day having a surprise guest appearance during sweeps week. Only now the sweeps never end.

But why? IMHO bringing Ro back spoke to Picard’s inner struggles with his past that have been the thesis of this entire series. Bringing Tuvok back for a few moments made just as much sense as having Seven in Picard from the start since they are both VOY characters.

IMO the character that makes the least sense is Data. He’s died a handful of times now and keep coming back. And unlike Spock, it wasn’t earned. there was no sacrifice in bringing him back like David dying and the destruction of the Enterprise in ST III

I was happy to see Michelle Forbes, though.

until she blew up

Yeah. That parks sucked. But at least it informed the audience that all bets are off and no one is safe. Except for Data of course which seems to have more lives than Spot.

Yeah the Tuvoc cameo felt shoehorned in, and a Harry Kim cameo? Really?

For my money they should’ve dumped Vulcan Gangster in favor of Naomi Wildman, which would been far more interesting.

Come to think of it, they could have saved a lot of money on Amanda Plummer, too. She was great, but the character went nowhere. I guess that’s a shot I’m taking at the writing.

Definitely agreed.

I felt bad for her. She did the best she could given the writers gave her a cardboard, silly, baddie.

Yeah, I’d have been just fine with fewer cameos and stunt casting in favor of making room for Rios, Soji, and Elnor.

I was kind of expecting them to connect Plummer’s character with her fathers characters from Star Trek 6 somehow, but you are correct in the end the character just fizzled out.

That would have been cool.


Vulcan gangster and ferengi gangster were easily the best thing about this lame show

Scarlett Pomers is apparently out of acting. There would have been plenty of fans wanting her head on a pike if they recast the character.

” Star Trek Avengers: Endgame ” Dear GOD, Please make this happen !

LOL Ironic considering Kevin Feige named Avengers: Endgame based on the VOY finale and All Good Things was his inspiration for the time travel exploits of the Avengers.

ok, listen, Picard was great but are we still really talking about it a year after it aired?

Agree. It’s time to move on, for better or worse (and for one, I fear it’s going to be worse). :)

What else is there to talk about? Everything else bites.

Maybe we should talk about the past. Anyone want to do a thread on Bantam and early Pocket Trek novels? Has anybody here actually read Mack Reynolds’ MISSION TO HORATIUS? I ask because I couldn’t make it through myself. It’s the first original TREK novel outside of SPOCK MUST DIE and I guess it hinges on LSD being dumped into a planet’s water supply. It was in my Jr. High School’s library, back before such things got frowned upon by narrow and closed minds.

It really is getting stale at this point.

Only the folks with a real hard on for season four….

PIcard is the last season of Trek we got. I’m sure next month when Discovery airs all the topics here would move to that.

Terry could always make some Short Treks for Star Trek Legacy, have a Voyager Homecoming story, Captain Proton, Seven and a older (Recast) Naomi Wildman, Scarlett Pomers is off the grid unfortunately and many more

I’d love to see a Legacy short trek!

GOOD I am so glad they didn’t get their hands on Naomi and ruining another wholesome character and turning her into a violent psychopath murderer like they did with Seven. I’ll never get over the character assassination they did to Seven. Completely shameful.

7 was not just a bloody thirsty killer here, there were reasons why she went there but was worthy of being captain of the Enterprise by the end.

How would you feel if someone murdered a person who is essentially your adopted child? Brashly calling her a “psycopath murderer” is clearly now what Seven is in the slightest.

Why are we asking where the Enterprise E is? It was very clearly decimated in the season finale of Prodigy.

I get worried for legacy characters in “Nu-Trek” it is like the star cameos in 1970s Irwin Allen disaster movies, which ones make it out alive

LOL, like before you know it, Kate Mulgrew is the George Kennedy of Star Trek.

Just the other night I watched the first movie George Kennedy was ever in, “Lonely Are The Brave,” starring Kirk Douglas. George was quite the force.

OK, now I am going to watch that — I bought it on Blu-Ray a couple of years back but never got around to watching it — thanks!

Cool – good film.

You couldn’t turn left or right at a theater in the mid-70s without seeing Kennedy in a movie. One month he had AIRPORT 1975 and EARTHQUAKE, both with Heston, and that was probably between THUNDERBOLT AND LIGHTFOOT and THE EIGER SANCTION.

He didn’t phone it in either — even when he was stuck in a superturkey like CONCORDE-AIRPORT 79, he really seemed to be trying. The stewardess from the movie is from EMANUELLE and she actually has a line like ‘you pilots are such men!’ Kennedy’s reply: they don’t call it the cockpit for nothing. Having his ground engineer character turn into a pilot in the fourth movie in a series seemed pretty out there, but geez, then he and Delon are putting the Concorde through barrel rolls, followed by an emergency landing that makes Star Trek V”s fx look good by comparison. At one point, while flying upside down, Kennedy opens the side vent on his window and distracts a nearby missile by firing a flare.

God, that is such a terrible flick — about 20 years ago I found a vhs copy at Movie Madness in Portland to show my wife, and she admitted that it was as bad as I had implied, but then asked why I felt compelled to show it to her anyway!

Guess I just wanted to share my pain, and gain strength from the sharing.

Good stories. I actually have the Airport boxed Blu-Ray set that I got in a bargain bin years back — still haven’t watched any of those.

I did get the Action Jackson blu-ray based on your recommendation a couple of weeks back — I will let you know what I think when I get to watching it.

You’ve never seen Captain Picard and Captain Stubing together, have you? Makes you wonder just how badly the time lines been polluted….

I dunno about Picard, but I personally believe that Discovery and SNW exist within the altered timeine of the Temporal Cold War but both will eventually be undone when Archer reverses everything and ends the war. It’s entirely possible Picard is as well.

But yeah, for me, I would have had as many as we could get. 

This quote illustrates a major problem with Trek today. Instead of coming up with a good story first, and then perhaps finding one or two ways to highlight some past characters, it’s a quantity over substance bling thing to shoehorn in all the old fogies they can get to service the fans.

On SNW, it’s “were going to take some huge swings.” On JJ-Trek, it’s, “the Enterprise needs a more muscle car look.”

I just want some good Star Trek. Season 1 of SNW was awesome, then we got the big swings thing with the crossovers and musical nonsense. Then Picard S3, while comforting from a reunion aspect, went way overboard on the silly space opera stuff.

Just tell some Star Trek stories. No more bling, gimmicks and faux Star Wars please!

this may be the last time with these characters s why not get in as many legacy faces as you can with this last season.
luckily circumstances helped to ease up on ‘fan service’ in this case.

I agree, provided this was truly the last time — I mean, the acting was great and the reunion aspects are why I appreciated it, even though I thought the story and action was not great Star Trek.

Welp with Ro at least unless they pull a “data” on her, she is going to stay dead.

I like space opera. To each their own…

I think Tuvok was a better choice than Janeway for this last scene. Janeway would have overshadowed that scene. Also, it was cool to see Tuvok since he has a good connection with Seven as well in Voyager. Seven had the best arc of the season and that was an amazing yet simple scene. I really want a Captain Seven show!

Yes it’s funny: people want a Seven show, people want a Riker show, they want a Worf show – but no one says: I want a Tuvok show. A Tuvok show would be rad!

I agree as well. Almost all Trek characters could lead their own show. It’s just that for me, we have invested some time during these three seasons of the Picard show on Seven to watch her arc (most impressively in season 3) and get the chair. With the exception of Riker, we have never witnessed a captain’s journey as thoroughly as Seven’s. I guess you could say that SNW is showing Kirk’s journey, but his own ambition is what drove him. Same with Picard and Janeway. Sisko was promoted but still did the same job and commander. Archer was a lead on the NX-01 project. Burnham had a good path, but then I don’t know what happened. And now she’s co-captain with Saru? Anyway, I hope for a Captain Seven show mostly because her path to the chair was the most interesting of any captain I’ve seen before, and we actually watched it unfold.

Tuvok and Suder cop show plz

Matalas is wrong, VERY wrong. The fans deserved to know definitively what happened to the Enterprise-E. Choosing not to reveal the fate of an Enterprise? Bad move, Matalas. Bad move.

You seem pretty heavily invested in knowing. I don’t really care. Maybe she went out heroically, or in a really bad space dock accident. It doesn’t matter.

The really bad space dock accident made me think of GALAXY QUEST, thanks!

Either way it would have just been a line of throwaway dialogue. Would it really have made a difference in the scene? It was going to be the D, never the E, that we reunited with. The way it was written, allowing Michael Dorn to be funny, was perfect.

That last scene was so obviously written for Janeway, you could feel her presence until Tuvok appears. Don’t get me wrong, I love Tuvok and I am so glad that he survived being replaced by a changeling, but that secene was a Janeway scene.

Lol, that Naomi Wildman idea is so unbelievably bad. Agree with the Enterprise E stuff though, more fun to leave it to the audiences imagination.

Nobody will ever be able to convince me that Voyager was not the correct choice of ship for the encounter with the borg at the end of Picard.

The only brought out the 1701D because it was a TNG fan service thing.

Voyager was faster, more maneuverable, it’s computers were more powerful, it’s weapons were comprable, and there’s not a ship in the fleet that has ever destroyed more Borg, and proven herself up to the task, than Voyager.

Janeway got lucky , should really have not engaged the Borg and sort to protect her crew instead.

Her victories over the Borg Queen actually diminished the menace and threat posed by the Collective.

The part about Voyager destroying Borg cubes is only true if the upgrades to the ship from alt timeline Janeway remained intact. From what we saw of Voyager in Picard S3 I doubt that is the case.

I am sort of glad Kim and Janeway didn’t appear. It would have felt like they were just shoe-horned into the episode. And we have Janeway on Prodigy.
And it was great to see Shelby again. Picard season 3 honoured many TNG characters and keeping it to the TNG universe was a good thing.
And I think everyone loved the Enterprise-E jokes.

Picard was garbage. Just let the old man die already.

Wow. You must be so delightful to be around.

It’s Ok, Terry, I can’t afford Kate Mulgrew either when she’s at a convention.

I get that they only had so much money but you really could’ve saved a lot by cutting the entire Raffie subplot. I would’ve rather had Worf going solo as some sort of Klingon Ronan. I dislike that character immensely

It is such a shame to hear about someone who clearly had so many plans for the show, and certainly executed very many of them. But it is hard to hear that we could have had so much more if they had the time and the money. Surely the people in charge must have known that this was VERY MUCH WORTH BOTH! Could you have imagined a Star Trek Endgame situation.

Say Picard got a full 24 episode season, which would have been like all my Christmas’ come at once. Say this time the Borg have found a way to modify their Transwarp hub technology which now let’s them travel to any point in Time as well as Space in only a few moments. Eventually after the TNG crew is back together we find out that destroying any part of the hub wouldn’t matter as the gateways exist throughout all of time and their exit points, like wormholes don’t exist until their are used. Or some other technobabble.

Eventually we learn that this Temporal Transwarp hub has a central power source, of sorts. A focal point in which the whole Network runs through. But getting to it is tricky because due to its nature it exists across all of time and the only to destroy it would be a combined effort with ships baring a different temporal signature. So from a different time. So Data and Geordi cook up a fancy temporal message beacon that transmits the plan across all of time. By this time The Borg, with a massive fleet are advancing on Earth, Kronos, Romulus, Cardassia and many others, but for Earth thanks to Fleet Week FINALLY Earth has more than just The Enterprise In range to assist. So the entire fleet is present and we get a cool shot of Fleet Admiral Janeway ordering all ships to move into Earth Defence Formation Alpha.

Similar to First Contact we cut back the The Enterprise D and hear the ordering of Earths defences into place. Picard and crew feel they can do no good here so contemplate heading to Earth to join its defence. Even though The Borg can bring in ships from across all of time so they can keep throwing ships at Earth with almost no end. Plus a Borg Armada is also only moments from arriving at the focal point.

As they are about to leave Data picks up spikes in Tachyon in their area. Dozens of Temporal anomalies begin to form. Picard believes they are more Borg, sent from another tomecto stop them.
But Data decents various signatures from the incoming ships, Federation signatures, Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Andorian and even some Ferengi. Enter famous ships from all of Trek history.

Kirk’s TOS era Enterprise, The Refit Enterprise A, Sisko’s Defiant, Janeways Voyager, Archer’s Enterprise Refit, Pike’s SNW era Enterprise (Kinda messy canon here but it’s fanfiction so all good), Burnham’s Discovery (Big groan I know but its part of Trek history), A younger TNG crew on the Enterprise E, Commander Tomalok with Romulan Warbirds, Ambadassor Sovak with a small Vulcan fleet (And a sly nod to the ENT nonsense that The Vulcan Science academy still doesn’t accept time travel), Shran with some Andorian ships, General Martok and Gowron with a Klingon Fleet, Gul Dukat and Cardassian Ships etc etc. You get the idea.

Similar to, and a nod to, the TNG finale all the famous Federation ships must fire some sciency beam at the focal point to collapse it. Then all present would return to their time and the Borg temporal transwarp hub would be destroyed.