Season one of Star Trek: Picard is officially behind us, and fans are already speculating about what season two will bring. Work on the new season has already started, and in some post-finale interviews, star Patrick Stewart and executive producers of the show have been talking about where the show is headed. We’ve gathered some of the highlights to add to our last round-up.
Stewart sees Picard as excited for the future possibilities
Patrick Stewart is the guest on the latest official Star Trek: Picard Podcast and he talked about how he saw Picard’s state of mind at the end of the season finale, giving the order to “engage” and heading out into space on La Sirena:
He has no idea where he is at because he has no idea what the future now might hold for him, which is what I think makes the matter of season two so exciting. He has pulled off a very, very successful mission throughout the first 10 episodes of season one. And he feels that therefore he can be certain that his abilities have not become fractured. His skills as an ambassador, as a negotiator, as a decision maker, are still present. Given that he can bring to them the right sort of mental attitude and focus. I think…he is actually excited by the ignorance that he feels about the future. He doesn’t know, and he would rather be at the point of undertaking something he doesn’t know anything about than sitting on the veranda at his vineyard in France.
Stewart sees Picard as happy to be back in space at the end of season one
Picard is new and reinvigorated for season two
On the same podcast, executive producer Akiva Goldsman gave an update on where work is on the second season, and his hopes for where it is headed:
We are still working it out. What we want to do is what we promised at the end of season one, which is a new day and a new reinvigorated, reborn, and therefore most essential Picard. How we do that? The only thing I can tell you is we hope not to do it in precisely the way you expect, and yet to satisfy you nevertheless.
Showrunner (and season two writer/producer) Michael Chabon spoke to The Hollywood Reporter about the season two challenges:
First, it’s got to be good, right? It has to be focused on Picard but have room for all the other characters. It’s never going to be just a show about the crew of a starship that’s part of Starfleet and everyone’s wearing uniforms and they’re flying around, encountering alien life and weird planets. Those are the challenges we face going into season two, and I’m so excited about the story we’ve come up with.
Picard “reborn” in his new synth body in the season one finale
Season 2 will deal with Picard 2.0, introduce Guinan, and maybe the Enterprise?
In a separate article in THR, Chabon talked more about where Picard (the character) is headed:
Whatever the implications are going to be for Picard having this new body, all of that is going to be part of [the character’s] way of thinking going forward.
One thing that has been confirmed is that Whoopi Goldberg will be reprising her role as Guinan the El-Aurian Ten Forward bartender and longtime Jean-Luc Picard confidante. Chabon talked to THR about writing Goldberg’s return:
It’s amazing. I’ve gone back to rewatch some of the more key Guinan episodes from Next Gen, the major Picard and Guinan moments. She’s such an amazing actor; I can’t wait.
Whoopi Goldberg in her last appearance as Guinan in Star Trek: Nemesis (2002)
Some fans wondered why Starfleet’s latest USS Enterprise didn’t make an appearance with the fleet seen in the season one finale. Chabon explained the decision and offered some hope for seeing it in season two:
“I don’t know for sure because we’ve gone back and forth,” Chabon says about plans for season two. “But, I think you’ll just have to wait and see.”Chabon goes on to say that, in the season finale, the team didn’t include or mention the Enterprise in the fleet lead by Riker because “it would have been such a throw away [moment] and it doesn’t seem right to give the Enterprise a throw away. If you’re going to do the Enterprise, you do the Enterprise.”
A big Federation fleet, but no Enterprise in season one finale
Work continues for season 2
The second season of Star Trek: Picard was officially announced in January, with Terry Matalas (12 Monkeys) coming on board as showrunner. Michael Chabon remains with the Trek team but has reduced his Picard workload as he takes on the job of showrunner for the Showtime adaptation of his novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay. Chabon has been involved in breaking the story for Picard season two and will be writing two of the episodes. Late last night Chabon posted an image of himself participating in a virtual writers’ room meeting with the message “Zoomin’ the room. #startrekpicardseason2” Over the weekend in his fan Q&A, Chabon said that before the coronavirus lockdown, the plan was to start production in mid-2020.
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Guinan’s scene with Picard in “The Measure of a Man” was pivotal in informing his thinking about how androids were treated by the Federation, and having an African-American woman give that line about “disposable people” made it even more powerful.
I’ve always loved Guinan’s character, and Whoopi Goldberg does her SO well; I look forward to seeing that character next season!
I would like to know if at least she will mourn organic Picard given she seems to have a more spiritual mental model. Why I can see her not even liking a photocopy due to it cheapening the self that was organic Picard while still respecting it as a life form (not like it got to pick what it was going to look and act like).
Do any of us get to pick what we look and act like?
You don’t think you get to choose how you act or what your hair style is and/or if you hit the gym?
A lot of people for good reasons think free will is an illusion.
Picard can still make any of those choices.
Not really. He can’t really choose to go to University and get a new career, they’ve programmed him with a really limited time frame. They’ve pretty much forced him to be a retired Picard which is sad.
He can do anything that any other 94 year old can do. And, when Picard turned into a kid that one time, he said that going back to school would feel like going backwards. I don’t think he would want to go back to college.
He has years left. So yes, he could go to university and start a new career if he wanted to.
McCoy was – what? – 144 years old? So, Picard could at least expect 40 to 50 years more…
BTW: To bring in Guinan would be one way to really validate (or dismiss) that Picard is in essence the real Picard. She can bring in the diffuse mysticism and be able to “feel” him (or not)*. So, from a story point of view, it would be great to have her back. My only fear is that they sweep it under the rug.
*BIG question: Will Deanna Troi be able to read him?…
If Troi can read him now then they will have ignored their own rules.
I’m not sure what Guinan can do here but hey… That’s the beauty of an enigmatic character. You can pretty much use them for nearly anything you need plot wise.
Well, she couldn’t read Soji, but she was able to read Data when Lore was feeding him negative emotions. The rules on Betazoid empathy aren’t exactly consistent.
You aren’t kidding! She read people across entire dimensions and then had a hard time with people right across the room when script needed it.
pick another drum, you’ve beaten the life out of this one
Cmd.Bremmon
It’s actually a big philosophical question about what makes you ‘you.’ Your organic body duplicates and replaces its cells constantly across your lifetime. Your brain is already a completely different one from the one you had as a child or teenager, so every seven years you’re a photocopy of an earlier you.
As far as I’m concerned, if your organic body dies and your memories and thought processes (your “operating system’) are copied across to a synthetic form, that’s still a valid continuation of ‘you.’ You’re a piece of computer software developed in an organic body.
If it’s of interest, check out Peter F Hamilton’s brilliant Commonwealth novels, which deal with this exact subject.
I am positive that if you took my brain and duplicated it that I would feel *I* and still *me* while v2.0 will feel it is *itself* and not *me*. Photocopying a person will not make it the same person, just as copying files from one computer to the next will not make it the same computer.
The only real question is should anyone care or is person #1 expendable as long as you have person #2. I find that concept dehumanizing.
Extrapolate if TNG is true. Then we really all shouldn’t care about COVID-19 response since we are all just irrelevant robots anyway and as long as there are people with similar knowledge, who cares and we should ensure the economy is functional. To think anything different is the action of a robot tricked into thinking they are something more.
You can see this too with eugenics. To prevent themselves from being in cognitive dissonance with a TV show they would say that engineering life, eugenics, is a-ok because you need to be able to engineer AI life like Picard. Can it get any scarier then that?
This is what makes Star Trek Star Trek dude. I get you don’t like it but it’s a reality that could truly happen on this planet in the future. Star Trek has always been behind discussing AI life but they realize now AI will only become more influential the more we rely on it and it evolves. Today its still in its infancy, but where will it be by the time we really do reach the 23rd or 24th centuries? At the rate things are going now, it could be pretty wild by then and we won’t be discussing it in hypotheticals like we are doing now but in reality.
As far as your Convid-19 analogy, we don’t have to even talk about being photocopied AI bodies to keep consciousness alive because last time I checked 95% of the world considers themselves religious in some way and most religions believe in an after life of some kind where consciousness will basically just continue on in metaphysical form somewhere. I’m an atheist so I never really buy into any of it (but I could be wrong) but since so many people believe life WILL continue on after we die then we’re basically irrelevant NOW because we’re just living in bodies that only has a very limited life span but supposedly when we die we will all live forever somewhere else and in a ‘world’ where we will have many more freedoms then we do now because we won’t have a body at all. But then of course there are beliefs like Hinduism and Buddhism that believes our consciousness just jumps from one body to the next for eternity. So the body dies but consciousness is transferred. What difference does it make if its in a synth body or not IF you believe this?
But If you can believe in an after life and we will still be who we are when we die, just in another form, you do have to wonder why everyone isn’t excited to just die NOW and live forever in this mystical universe where all consciousness lives forever. And that’s not science fiction, its ‘reality’ depending on whatever God you may believe in.
So what are we talking about? When you die but still have another life anyway, will that still be you? If you are put in another body and given a completely new identity but still carries the same soul like Hinduism believes is that also still you?
To me, these concepts scares me just as much. They are nice ideas but I don’t know if I want to live forever in ANY form, robot, another human or pure consciousness. But its all questions humans have been dealing with since the beginning of our existence and as we only become more evolved it will continue to be that way, especially in something like Star Trek that can explore all these issues.
Well, security officers were always expendable.
Even though I’m not happy about the Picard reveal I will say it does bring a lot of interesting philosophical discussions like we’re doing now. Its funny I been watching a documentary series that aired on National Geographic called ‘The Year Million’ (and now on Disney+ where I’m watching it) which deals with the reality of where humans and AI is headed in the future and multiple possibilities like putting our consciousness into android bodies, living for centuries, living inside the internet, being part of a hive mind, etc.
Its really fascinating but it also speaks to how BEHIND the curve Star Trek is with this stuff because in reality we all know there is a much bigger chance we are going to have an AI explosion in the next hundred years before we ever start warping to other planets and meeting aliens. What’s funny is Matt Mira shows up a few times on that show and even uses a few Star Trek examples. :)
But Star Trek in so many ways has either never really showed the realities of where AI will go in the future or just purposely ignored it. NOW they seem to be highlighting it in both Discovery and Picard because its now becoming more and more part of our lives now and will be a huge part of our real future that TOS or TNG never imagined at the time, the only question is in what form? I’m still not completely happy HOW its portrayed (especially in Discovery) but it is good that it is being shown now because it IS part of our future. We may not all be living in synth bodies in the next 200 years but I suspect AI will have a huge presence on Earth that is practically ignored on Star Trek minus just having emergency holograms.
I would implore anyone to look up that documentary The Year Million if you haven’t yet. Its really good and hosted by Lawrence Fishburne. All these are questions and debates we are discussing now will be issues our descendants will actually be dealing with head on most likely.
I like your notion a lot! People may be on the fence about the Picard=Synth twist (and I am not gonna lie, it WAS executed quite heavy handedly). But the story possibilities it opens up as well as the philosophical implications are as Star Trek as you can possibly get, right?…
Yeah I think this is all fascinating stuff! None of it is new in terms of science fiction itself but it’s never been a big part of Star Trek either. It’s like everything in Star Trek, they make an episode around something that implies HUGE implications but its dropped and forgotten the very next episode. But now we live in a new world in terms of story and everything is so serialized, so they can really explore these themes if they want to.
But yeah I just hate it was done with Picard because as we are seeing there are people now questioning if that’s the ‘real’ Picard or not and its eye rolling. And don’t get me wrong, its a VALID argument, even though I think people like Cmd Bremmon has gone waaaaay off the deep end with it lol, his basic point if it’s the same person or a copy of a person is a valid question for sure. We DON’T really know although it’s basically whatever the writers decide it is at the end of the day. But that won’t stop people debating the issue either way. But that’s also the beauty its probably meant to be a philosophical issue. And maybe the writers want this as part of the debate. This is what Star Trek does.
I have no issues with it I just wish they did it a less important character so we won’t have to hear ‘well its not really him anymore’ for the next decade. Give Raffi the synth body instead! With the amount of drugs, alcohol and smoking that girl has probably done she could possibly drop dead in under a decade. ;)
Where can I can get Chabon’s Zoom background?
That’s from the Star Trek TOS colorforms set from the 70s.
couldnt be happier with all of this… seeing guinan is so gonna be awesome… bu the big question is will she be bringing her big hats along?
I think that goes without saying.
Agreed. We already knew she was coming back but I still can’t wait to see her. I loved her on TNG. And during my big rewatch before this show started I didn’t realize how many of the most iconic episodes she appeared in. She’s great.
It will be interesting to see if we get to learn why Picard and Guinan are so close. I saw The Best of Both Worlds the other day and she asks Riker if Picard ever told him why they are close and he responds no. And she says let’s just say they are beyond friends and beyond family.
Yeah… She may as well said “I’m not going to tell you because even the writers don’t know.”
Well… Dang. We will see Guinan again. Will she still be tending bar somewhere?
What a mistake. Guinan was nearly as useless as Troi.
Maybe you should re-watch “The Measure of a Man” and “Yesterday’s Enterprise.”
I have actually recently saw both of those. In “measure” she gave Picard the idea to try the emotional but illogical argument. Riker’s argument actually made more logical sense as opposed to Picard’s plea to an emotional extreme. Yesterday’s sure. She had to be the one to “sense” what was going on but no one ever explained why that was. Only that “she’s a mystery and we all trust her”. I did like the episode but felt the Guinan part of the solution was awfully weak. It should have been resolved another way. The writer’s need to show a little more imagination.
To YOU it maybe did, but for me I agree with Picard’s argument in Measure of a Man and end of the day that was the one that won out.
Picard wasn’t just making an emotional plea. He made a real point. Data’s case would set a precedent that could very easily lead to the Federation endorsing slavery. You only have to look at what happened to the Doctor’s fellow EMHs to see how right he was.
Hardly. That concept was such an incredible leap that it goes even beyond hyperbole. Is the Enterprise computer a slave? Please… That plea was NOTHING but emotional. There were not facts supporting it. The EMH is in the same boat. They are hardly slaves. Just program them to do the job. They are nothing but “photons and forcefields”.
And for the record having just seen the show recently that decision did not come across as ‘final’ in any way. It very much felt like it would get revisited in Federation courts. That ‘judge’ seemed to realize this issue needed more than just a quickie decision made at some remote location without proper legal representation for either side.
We’re not talking about the Enterprise computer. We’re talking about beings like Data and the Doctor, both of whom we know are sentient. If you’ve ever seen Voyager, then you know that the EMH is much more than photons and forcefields. Every one of them has the same potential that the Doctor has.
We are talking about devices that are the same as the Enterprise computer. If one is sentient then so is the other. And the EMH is certainly not more than that. Just because the EMH was designed with wants and a personality does not make him sentient. I liked the character but he was like Data. A mere man made tool. Like a wrench. Just more complex.
How would you define sentience then. The Doctor has desires, emotions, worries, and a personality. What makes us sentient but him a tool?
Sentience is achieved when it is internally generated. Not externally. The EMH was programmed to behave a certain way. Data was programmed to behave a certain way. By a person. As was said before, Data is incapable of “gut decisions”. Or genuine intuition. Self awareness is a start but it goes beyond that.
Your ‘tool’ doesn’t decide to do things beyond what it was just meant to do, be a tool. The Doctor, like Data, went beyond its programming. It wanted to learn about things no other EMH was ever designed to do. He was passionate about singing and writing. He developed friendships, wanted a family and fell in love. He fought for other holographic rights when he felt they were being treated unfairly and empathized when others were being treated unfairly.
This all came from someone who was just suppose to help someone sick and then leave when the job was done, nothing more. He wasn’t PROGRAMMED to be curious about anything besides medical procedures. No one was suppose to think anymore about him because he wasn’t suppose to be anymore than that….until they kept him on and he started to evolve. That’s exactly why the Doctor became so popular because fans started to understand that’s what he was becoming and it became fascinating to watch.
No offense but your thinking is just beyond narrow minded on this. If you can’t accept that someone actually developed real feelings, thoughts and beliefs on their own but still decide they are nothing but ‘tools’ then you basically decided they will never be seen as an individual even though they have surpassed every measure of what we deem someone as a sentient being.
Even though he has achieved his own desires, thoughts and wants you will still discard any of that and just treat them simply as a tool. If they can never be seen as more than that, then it doesn’t matter if it’s one, hundred or a million of them that evolves to this level, they will just be seen as a tool you can do whatever you want with. Dude, that’s LITERALLY what Picard argument was in Measure of a Man! That’s the entire point.
It’s easy for us to say ‘oh its just a computer’ because we know this is all fiction and we don’t have anything close to real AI how its presented on these shows. But if this was reality, then no, it wouldn’t be nearly as simple as you pretend it to be because you’re not arguing with a machine right now if it should have rights or not. Trust me, the day Siri starts asking you if it can talk to other computers and can start developing their own hobbies in their free time and argues with you when you tell it no is the day there would be a huge paradigm shift on all of this like it is in the world of Star Trek.
Right now Siri is just happy to answer your questions so no one thinks anymore about it. It will be different the day it starts asking YOU questions because it simply wants to.
But that’s the thing. They DIDN’T exceed their programming. That is impossible. Someone programmed them to behave in this way. They both behaved exactly as they were told to by their operating systems. The only way around that is if they were some sort of experiment and their programmers tried something not knowing how they would react to it. However, that does not elevate them to the level of organic life.
I would be happy if Siri was actually capable of understanding and asnwering even the most simple questions. Right now all it does is an internet search. Which I can do. I still find Siri to be pretty darn worthless.
The Doctor actually programmed himself a lot of the time, which is pretty impressive. But, how are we any different? We were created by evolution, and not by a designer, but we are still bound by certain instincts and by our DNA. We can all become something more though, which is exactly what Data and the Doctor did.
But the Doctor has no instincts. In fact, he has no DNA. He only has code. Code that doesn’t even exist in his physical being. Said code exists in a computer bank. Even Data has a better argument for sentience than the EMH has. At best he can be compared to a person on life support as he needs holo-emitters just to exist. He was able to be more because he is a hologram that was designed to be whatever it was programmed to be. It was already established that holo characters could be self aware. But that doesn’t qualify them as sentient life.
ML31 they do in fact exceed their programming! They did an ENTIRE episode on it about the Doctor about it in fact. Look up the episode ‘The Swarm’. In that episode the Doctor was starting to dysfunction and his circuits were failing. So B’Elanna used the original Lewis Zimmerman program to figure out what was the problem.
And they figured out he was having problems because his program was not designed to stay on forever NOR all the personality subroutines that had been added in that time that the Doctor himself added. The irony is Zimmerman himself argued he was just a hologram to do a job and he wasn’t designed to make friends or learn opera….and yet somehow he did on his own anyway. Zimmerman argued to the crew about the Doctor just as you are arguing about it now and that he’s just a tool and CAN’T go beyond that because that was never his function. And yet he did because he was in fact evolving. Just no one ever bothered to see if a hologram could go beyond his programming until Voyager and we saw the effects of it. So yeah.
As for Data I will agree part of his programming was to understand what it was to be human. But where Data went beyond his programming is that he still made his own choices on what that meant. For example the emotion chip which he always wanted because I suspect he was program to want emotions. But YET he still decided in the end he couldn’t handle them and went without them. Computers don’t decide what they want or don’t want. And computers certainly don’t decide if they want to die or not. Data is self aware and makes his own choices. No he wasn’t as evolved as the Docoter which I agree with, but he was still very self aware. The fact he knew what he was and what his limits were proves that. Machines don’t question what they can and can’t do because their job is to solely function. How is that different from what you and I do? Or every single species on the planet?
The funny thing is most organic life is ‘programmed’ from birth just like computers are. Bees don’t wake up and decide what they are going to do with the rest of their life like we do, they instinctively work and live like all the other bees and don’t question it. And yet we still consider them as alive as we are although how they lives are (nearly) completely alien to how we live. Only humans really question anything they do because we have a high enough intelligence do it just like Data and the Doctor ultimately does.
And yes maybe Siri is worthless now, she’s not even 10 years old yet. But what will she be like in the next hundred years? ;)
But… The EMH is just doing what holographic characters can do. Which is, be programmed to do whatever the user wants them to do. In this case, the EMH was self aware and wanted to do these things. I still wouldn’t classify it as life.
You make a good argument about Data not being able to handle the emotions when he got them. That is on the odd side. Why would Soong create a chip to tell him how to feel and what his likes and dislikes would be if he had the ability to decide he didn’t want them once they were installed? I have nothing to counter that and it certainly makes your case. Although if Soong is a God (and creating life from nothing sort of fits a qualification of that title) then one could use the old stand by of working in mysterious ways. ;)
But there are responses for the other things. Like computers do not generally decide what they want. The choices they make are ones they are programmed to make. And then there is the entire intuition and gut feeling thing. Which again, there was an episode where they couldn’t let data pilot the ship because he was incapable of such things.
The programming organic life gets just cannot be compared to writing computer code. I see the similarities but I think the differences ought to be pretty obvious to most.
And yes, Siri sucks now but the tech ought to improve.
But you keep missing the point, he WASN’T programmed to do those things, he learned to do them on his own. He went beyond his programming. You may not classify it as life but clearly others did. The guy even got married to a human lol.
Thank you for my point about Data though! :)
As for computers, yes they are programmed to decide what they like and don’t. But no one programmed the doctor to like opera, he just does and PASSIONATE about it. It’s HIS choices that he is making all on his own. That’s where he is becoming conscious and not just doing something because he is being told to do it, ie free will.
But yeah we’re not going to agree obviously lol. I just find it funny you keep saying people won’t see them as a life while the shows have literally classified as them as such. Data had to literally go through a trial but he is considered life jut like the rest of us. The writers have made it clear the synths are every bit as life as everyone else. But sure, in OUR world they may not ever be, but they are in Star Trek. But this is why I love AI stories, I love these debates and in a few centuries I have a feeling they won’t just be hypothetical based on science fiction shows. ;)
Well… My point is that someone DID program the EMH to like opera. There is no other way for this to happen. Machines don’t suddenly do things they aren’t capable of doing. To use a modern example, a driverless car doesn’t just stop short of 40MPH because the car decided on its own it didn’t like moving that fast.
Regarding conceding your point… Never let it be said that ML31 refuses to accept views he did not consider!
Perhaps in the fictional Trek world computers can evolve on their own (although why the Enterprise computer didn’t I have no idea). But I just have a hard time accepting inanimate objects becoming animate in a non fairy tale genre.
ML31, I like you but you can be very stubborn lol. But yes you did concede with Data. But as for the Doctor, the show made it CLEAR no one programmed him to like opera because he wasn’t designed at ANY POINT to sing opera but to perform medical procedures. Your point that machines suddenly doing things they aren’t capable of doing is literally the entire point that is being discussed lol. His own creator didn’t understand how he had evolved so much. That’s what makes him conscious because he managed to learn things beyond his own programming like we manage to learn things on our own.
Seriously the episode I quoted you, ‘The Swarm’ makes this completely clear and this was only second season. Even his personality suggests it because he wasn’t programmed to be friendly or have friends and yet he learned to be and was practically a different person by the end of series (which is ironically the opposite of Data who kept basically the same personality throughout his life). Computers don’t change personalities either.
“Perhaps in the fictional Trek world computers can evolve on their own (although why the Enterprise computer didn’t I have no idea). But I just have a hard time accepting inanimate objects becoming animate in a non fairy tale genre.”
Yeah its a SCIENCE FICTION show and Star Trek is known to take…liberties. ;) If you watch Westworld (which is good but a little convoluted at times), this discussion we are having now is literally the entire basis of that show! But on Star Trek, this is just a Tuesday for them lol.
Yes in the real world maybe none of this possible but we also don’t have computers nowhere where they are in Star Trek (and we are centuries behind ;)). But in Star Trek, it’s possible, that’s all that is being said. And you have heard me say this several times I don’t pretend Star Trek is our reality because it isn’t. It’s only about the POSSIBILITIES!
I always liked the Voyager EMH. But I never could suspend the disbelief that a programmed hologram could even begin to start thinking on its own. Part of the issues there is the universe changing ramifications of such a thing are enormous. New Trek (which is what I consider TNG era) had a tendency to introduce HUGE concepts and NEVER follow up on them. Or completely forget they did them. I mean, Voyager totally set up a holographic character revolt. But nothing seems to have come from it. If machines in the future (or in the Trek world) can evolve how come none but the ones the episode is dealing with do? The concept is pretty sci-fi-ish but I really think it was better for Trek to not get into them. It’s an ugly can of worms.
It feels like STP was trying to do some sort of bigotry analogy using the feared synths. But the thing is, like in X-Men, the analogy falls apart when the reason for the fear is LEGITIMATE. The analogy works in situations like Let That Be Your Last Battlefield. Not in a situation where a group is feared because they would be unstoppable if they decided to wantonly start killing or harming people. In the case in Picard, I still think eventually these synths created by Soong will opt to rebel against their organic creators. And the only thing that might stop it is the fact that Soong is essentially their God more than he is their ‘father’. And even that safeguard won’t last long most likely.
Sorry… I rambled off topic a bit. I’ll just finish with conceding that it very much looks like in the Trek world computers are able to grow and evolve on their own but it does not seem to have any rhyme or reason for the conditions that produce such an evolution. But I have a hard time suspending disbelief for such things.
Also Best of Both Worlds.
What does BOBW have to say about it? it’s the one episode I have actually watched multiple times. I don’t see how it’s relevant.
Guinan was great in First Contact!!
/sarcasm
I’m excited that Guinan is coming back. Maybe we can learn a little but about how she and Picard know each other, and why they trust each other so completely.
Isn’t that something that should have been addressed at some point during the SIX seasons Guinan was on the show?
It was pretty clear that they intentionally chose to keep it mysterious back then.
Yeah that was the entire point of Guinan, everything about her was suppose to be mysterious. It was all vague for a reason. We didn’t even see another of her kind until Generations and Soran showed up.
Well it didn’t work. All that did was make me stop caring and consider the character a waste of time.
Honestly I don’t think the shows writers or producers even knew what her story was. That was why they never told us or even gave out any little hints over the years. Seems like they jumped at the chance to have Whoopi in the cast so much so that they didn’t think the character through at all. Same thing for her. She wanted to be in the show so very much that she didn’t care about who she was playing.
It worked fine for me. Guinan wasn’t a main character, she showed up 2-5 episodes a season. They only had one episode that was actually about her and that was in Time’s Arrow when her and Picard first met. Not everyone needs a story. What can you tell me about Sulu and that guy was in 70 episodes lol. I just find these arguments odd, not EVERY character on a show are given deep character backgrounds, especially guest roles. O’Brien didn’t even get a first name until the fourth season and didn’t learn a single about her until then he was in 50 episodes in TNG (and we still learned way more about him than we did Sulu ;)). And Guinan was just meant to be a bit mysterious, stay in the background and they still occasionally told us things about her but overall she was just there to talk to the crew.
True but TNG being an ensemble show meant that the characters got a chance to be fleshed out. Guinan never was. Sulu wasn’t there for the much of season 2, BTW. Takei was filming The Green Berets. But that show was not an ensemble. Next to nothing was revealed about them unless there happened to be an episode that needed a crew connection. Sort of like Chapel and Dr. Korby. Most characters that are considered even a semi major part of the show are given some sort of background for the actor to work with. But even without all that… TNG dropped hints from time to time about the special relationship she had with Picard. Yet they never even gave out the slightest hint what any of that was! Over 6 seasons! You’d think they would at least whet the appetite for the fans with SOMETHING. But I think it’s because no one behind the scenes even knew. And I would wager that if Whoopi even asked she was told they had nothing so I imagine she filled in the blanks with something she could work with. Also she showed up a lot more often than you think. I am nearing the end of season 3 and she has showed up 7 or 8 times already.
I’m sure that they didn’t know, and I suspect that that was intentional. They could have come up with a back story for her if they had wanted to, but they decided that she worked better when she was kept mysterious.
If that is the case, Legate Damar, then they failed. Because after a while I just stopped caring. They could fill in the blanks in Picard S2 if they want but I honestly wouldn’t care much what they say about her at this point.
Guinan was NOT part of the ensemble though, it was a guest star role. She wasn’t billed as a main star. True they could develop any character as much as they want, but nowhere does it say every character HAS to be that developed. And yes some characters are simply meant to stay mysterious. In Goldberg’s case, they just slotted the character whenever she was free enough to film an episode. She wasn’t a typical guest star and probably why none of the stories were ever directly about her. But if they wanted to do it, they could’ve I just don’t think they thought it was that important because it wasn’t.
And sorry you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say they dropped the ball with Guinan but then excuse characters like Sulu who was actually PART of the main cast and we saw sit on that bridge every episode he was on. Every time he was there, they gave him lines and something to do, but we learn SQUAT about Sulu for that show’s entire run. And yes it was the 60s, but not every show did it this way either. PLENTY of shows had tons of story background for their supporting characters back then too. I use to watch lots of reruns of Gilligan Island, Bewitch and Mission Impossible and there were focused character shows beyond just the main players even if it was just a few episodes a year. TOS just decided the only ones who mattered were Kirk, Spock and Bones sadly. Other than Scotty, the others were just background props most of the time.
And even if you want to believe that’s just how it was back then, they put these people in SIX movies and what did we learn about ANY of them besides Kirk, Spock and Bones? Nothing. The only thing I can remember learning something about Sulu is that he was born in San Francisco. He got ONE line of development in 70 episodes and six films. I do remember Takei saying something that he was suppose to have a scene meeting on of his ancestors in your favorite movie TVH but naturally it was cut.
But Guinan wasn’t treated any differently than most guest star roles back then. And it still proves, even as TOS proved, that just because characters got very little development doesn’t mean people can’t fall in love with them anyway.
I think Guinan WAS a part of the ensemble. There are lots promo photos of the cast that included her. Was O’Brien ever in any of them? Nope. But SHE was. Yes, Whoopie was a name but you don’t even put a named guest star in the main cast photos. It’s just not done. I guess they thought she was supposed to be some mysterious character but it failed. I found nothing mysterious about her. Her main skill seemed to be that she counseled people far better and more often than Troi ever did. But then, was is a bartender lol.
I see and understand what you are saying about Sulu. And in a sense you are correct. But the difference is that TOS never intended or went out of their way to flesh out the minor roles but TNG was planned to be an ensemble from the start and DID go out of their way to try and flesh these people out. Except Guinan. I was actually a bit interested in her when she showed up (mainly because only Worf provided any kind of interesting character for me) I was hoping this new character would be of interest. Turns out she was just a tease. We got nothing. And because of that, I lost interest. The character was too weak and shallow to stay interested in the mystery of what she was. And ultimately I just stopped caring after the one episode that looked like it might provide some background. Time’s Arrow. It gave us nothing.
And yes, people can love any character no matter how much screen time they get. I’m sure Dr. M’Benga (sp) has his fans! In fact, when O’Brien became a recurring transporter guy I found I liked him 2nd best behind Worf. Mainly because the others were so bland. Not sure why. Something about that guy said “could be interesting” that wasn’t there for the others. Then he got tabbed for DS9 and I thought, “cool!”
Dude, she wasn’t even in the credits lol. It would literally say ‘special guest star’ whenever she showed up so what am I missing? How can you be part of an ensemble if you only show up two or three episodes times a year?
But yeah we’ll just agree to disagree on this too. None of it is a big deal. I always loved O’Brien too though and was so happy when he went to DS9 and became a regular. One of the smartest things they did.
True but not even LeLance showed up in any cast photos. But Goldberg did. She was a recurring character who showed up enough to be considered enough a part of the cast that she was included in promo material. She was prominent enough to be a part of the crew. I do think they intentionally left her background a mystery thinking it could be a “cool” thing about her. But my point is it didn’t. All that did was devalue the character in my mind because she was so shallow otherwise that I just stopped caring. I’d just as soon she not ever show up again. If they decide to give us something 30 years after the fact I’m not going to think it a big deal at all. At this point it might be wise to keep her a complete mystery if they opt to deal with her at all.
Myself, I’d rather see some DS9 and Voyager people show up in STP S2. But then, I guess I’m a minority.
Lol have you not seen Times Arrow?
Yeah. That tells us why Guinan initially sought Picard out, but there is more to the story that we don’t know. Picard trusted Guinan implicitly years before he travelled back in time. They have some history in between the nineteenth century and the first season of TNG.
I did once. Some 30 years ago. I only remember Data’s head surviving for centuries and not much else. The only episodes where I really remember something were the ones that were either really good or really bad. The mediocre ones I just did not recall much of. I am doing a series rewatch for the first time. Nearing the end of season 3 now. So I’ll hit that episode when I get to whatever season it appeared in.
I love Guinan. I love Whoopi. She was just amazing. Her acting and the producers writing her lines was a perfect match in every scene she was in…I was actually surprised how she was just a cameo for the STNG movies. Whoopi/Guinan is the type of person/character that just including her gives a powerful upgrade to each of those episodes. Every episode Guinan was part of the story, it was one of my favorite and memorable episodes.
Yes! Her lines in “The Measure of a Man” were just chilling and formed the basis of Picard’s winning strategy. Data might not have won at the hearing without her.
No. Data was going to win no matter what because the show needed Data on the ship. The fact is when you listen to both Riker’s and Picaerd’s cases Rikers made the most logial sense. Picard merely plead to emotion. Hardly a strategy that ought to have won any court case. In the 21st century courts are more interested in facts. Not what “feels” good.
None of Riker’s points were at all relevant. He brought up the fact that Data was stronger (like a Klingon or a Vulcan) and that Data’s arm comes off, which is irrelevant. Picard pointed out that he had all the characteristics of a person.
Then you did not pay attention. He showed that Data was a machine. Assembled by an organic human. The machine behaved just like other machines they use as tools. Including the ability to just turn off and on in a way that was not sleep nor was it like being put under anesthetic. It more like dead but it wasn’t dead. Like all machines. Picard on the ther hand played the “slavery” card. Which makes no logical sense but DOES bring out some pretty heavy handed emotions like repulsion. It was obviously designed to appeal to the judges feelings with the hope she wouldn’t think too hard about the situation.
And Picard pointed out that Data was programmed to ape certain aspects of human behavior but he ignored the elements that would qualify it as sentient life. Data cannot reproduce. Data doesn’t breathe. Data doesn’t eat. And more importantly, Data cannot feel. Data is incapable of intuition. Data is incapable of genuine inspiration. These things were confirmed in various episodes of the show.
It doesn’t matter where Data came from. Nobody was disputing the fact that he was created. Or that he could be turned off, or that he can’t reproduce, or that he doesn’t eat. But none of that has anything to do with sentience. That just proves that he is not an organic being, which we already knew. Vulcans also don’t show emotion, but nobody accuses them of being non-sentient. And, of course, Data did eventually gain emotions. Data has shown us that he is capable of intuition and inspiration on multiple occasions. Like when he won that game of Stratagema (or whatever it was called), or when he discovered the hidden Romulan fleet.
Vulcans feel emotions. Data doesn’t. Big difference. What data gained was not on his own. He gained it by someone else’s programming. He was TOLD how to feel towards certain things. It was not genuine. Data has NEVER been capable of intuition or inspiration. Ever. In fact there was an episode where they needed someone to pilot the ship but they could not use data because he was unable to tap into such things.
Which episode was that? I don’t remember it. Nobody told Data what to think or feel. Dr. Soong specifically said that he didn’t want Data to join Starfleet.
The Episode “Booby Trap” made it clear Data was incapable of “gut decisions”. Which was why he could not pilot the ship. Also, when the emotion chip was installed in Generations Data experienced emotions as well as likes and dislikes. Such things were in the chip. Data did not naturally decide what he liked or not. The chip, designed by a human, told him so.
But it’s NOT Picard – He’s dead – his soul, his body, the REAL Picard Died, and THIS Picard is just an advance synth (the perfect artificial life form) with all his memories and experiences. His Soul is gone – off to a Better Place,we hope. the Real Picard Died…people are missing that and hopefully it will be explored in season two.
The writers disagree with you, they have said it is the exact same person.
It is a philosophical problem. I belive it is called “Ship of Theseus”
I don’t think so (re: the writers thinking AI Picard=organo-Picard). The writers just don’t think it matters because rationally you are just spacedust doing programming tricking yourself into believing you are alive that rationally who really cares? If you act and look like Picard, why can’t that be Picard in that case? Dehumanizing, yes. Rational, also yes if you believe that you are a construct doing programming just tricking yourself into thinking you have self (because it’s not like organic Picard who doesn’t exist anymore cares).
The writers also said Picard was dealing with the REAL data download into B4. Yet the conversation they had and the set up to it strongly suggested it was not. So the writers are capable of making mistakes….
Herb, some have said that about using a transporter in Star Trek. Every time someone beams via transporter, the original is destroyed, with a perfect genetic copy being replicated at the other end. One’s “soul” doesn’t come along for the ride. The original you is gone, replaced by a duplicate.
It depends on if the transporter *moves* (disassembles, move, reassembles) the cells of the person or recreates them (destroys, makes a new). This was discussed actually in Diane Carey’s Final Frontier novel where Kirk’s Dad on transporting is horrified at first thinking the real Kirk has died and he is just a copy, only for Robert April to tell him to relax because he is the same particles. There is a real difference with respect to the *you* that is thinking and feeling. If you believe you are just a robot with programming tricking yourself into thinking you are alive then I suppose rationally you don’t care. If you care for *self* the difference is huge.
One thing is clear the organic Picard who had *self*, lived and thought and was is gone. Whatever was *thinking* is no more. Kind of sad to think his friends found this organism not worth mourning just because they have a *new form* that is exactly like the *old form*. Very dehumanizing.
Have you seen The Prestige with Hugh Jackman? It touches on this idea too.
SPOILERS FOR “THE PRESTIGE”
To perform his “transported man” illusion where he appears to teleport from the stage to the balcony he has a machine made by Nikola Tesla that would actually do it for real. But instead of teleporting it ends up just creating an exact duplicate, one existing in the new space and one in the original. So he puts a trap door and box filled with water under the stage to drown the duplicate standing there while the one that appears in the balcony lives on finishing the show. Killing a version of himself every time he performs the trick while also admitting he never actually knows each time whether he’ll be the man in the box or the man in the balcony.
I have seen it, the movie made no sense but I belive Jessica Biel was in it.
That was actually The Illusionist, a different movie about 19th century magicians that came out the same year. The Prestige was a lot more interesting in my opinion.
Damn you are right I tuvixed the two movie in my memory. I thought Jackson played along Norton. I think I have to agree that The Prestige was better.
That is a good way to see the difference. If the transporter *moves* then you can only have one Kirk. If the transporter *destroys/creates* you can actually just use the transporter as a photocopier (i.e. have TWO Kirks). That the transporter has never been used for photocopying makes me think it MOVES (exception – The Enemy Within in which Kirk is SPLIT but with each having mutually exclusive characteristics which also makes me think it moves, if not it just would have made two identical Kirks). That the Enemy Within splits Kirk’s “soul” (evil and good sides) makes one think life is MORE than AI programming, but this is in contrast to Picard.
TOS and especially TMP directly refutes Picard especially with V’ger having all the knowledge in the Universe and STILL NEEDING a human for certain human qualities (Picard says this isn’t true, you could have just programmed them in).
Transpoter made two Rikers and it fused a future self into his past self. Making one out of two.
You can see how TOS had it “moving” while TNG is dehumanized to the point they destroy/create and don’t care. I really think the real theme of TNG is utopia is a dehumanized dystopia.
Yeah the transporter has always been an issue with this. Everybody (in Star Trek) seems to ignore it but it basically duplicates life over and over again.
Everything that made Picard Picard is in the synthetic body now. The new Picard has just as much claim to the identity as the old one did. If Picard can be said to have had a soul, then that soul is now in the synthetic body.
You think they can move a soul?!!?!?
The whole Picard concept is that there is NO soul and that you shouldn’t care, to care when you have the same end result is irrational (maybe true??).
The organic Picard thought and now he doesn’t. Either way you look at it, he is gone and what you have is a photocopy. If you have a book and then photocopy it you have two copies of the same story, but there are different books.
Spock moved his soul. What is a soul anyway, if its not the sum of our memories and personalities?
In your analogy, what if I’m reading an e-book on my Kindle and then choose to read it in my iPad? Are they two different books then? How is that any different from deleting the book from my Kindle but then re-downloading it onto the same device?
Body switchs happened a lot of times in Star Trek.
In TOS I think they basically had it where the characters had “souls” – remember this was the 60s.
In TNG it’s all “new age” now where there are no souls, to think there are souls is irrational.
I don’t recall the word “soul” ever appearing in TOS. In the Turnabout Intruder, it seemed like Kirk and his girlfriend’s “souls” were completely switched. If they can swap bodies, then why can’t Picard?
” In the Turnabout Intruder, it seemed like Kirk and his girlfriend’s “souls” were completely switched.”
Agreed.
So you agree that the technology to move a soul to a new body does exist in Star Trek.
It’s ALWAYS been there in Star Trek! In TOS, Return to Tomorrow was the first Trek episode to deal with this idea and had consciousness transferred to android bodies, its amazing what people chooses to forget lol.
What’s funny is this entire idea came from THE episode that inspired one of Kirk’s greatest speeches in the franchise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIU3HrCCT2k
“Risk is our business!”
This is what Star Trek IS! It’s about pushing the boundaries. It’s been pushed since 1966 and THANKFULLY its still being pushed in 2020.
Yes, but TNG says that there are NO SOULS and thus nothing to transfer. You are just a robot that any man can engineer that is pretending to be alive running in programming. You thinking there are souls to transfer in TNG is an artifact of you being irrational. At best there are files to be copied.
Sargon was never just an human engineered AI construct within incorporated programming.
None of the series have taken a stance one way or the other on whether the soul exists. That is a question that we cannot answer today, and that we will not be able to answer 200 or 300 years from now.
So, he’s just making it up (sigh). This is why I can’t take his posts seriously when you cherry pick everything to death and prescribe things that happens only in your head and not on the show itself.
I can’t think of a single episode anywhere on any of the shows that talked about souls and if they exist or not.
Where did anyone say there are ‘no souls’? What episode are you referring to?? I can’t think of one that dealt with this issue directly before until this show. I mean on TNG.
But this is Star Trek, its not always the most consistent lol.
Are you saying that Soong could engineer souls?
I literally asked you a direct question, where in TNG did anyone talk about not having a soul and if exists or not??
I say Picard says Data=life but Soong did not engineer a soul therefore in TNG (and TOS only) no one has a soul. They are just engineered programmed robots pretending to have life, that’s why no one cares that organic Picard no longer exists so long as they have a copy. Dehumanizing, yes, but that has been and pretty much always will be TNG. The more they look at it (i.e. Picard) the more that theme shines through in that utopia is a dystopia. TNG says your need for souls is you tricking yourself into thinking your anything more that the desktop on your desk that when a better version comes along suicide and eugenics are acceptable options (note – I really don’t think that at all which is why Picard is a trainwreck to me, all this just for some forced political analogy that I think even they knew blew up in their faces). They shouldn’t feel bad though, that was the Prophet TNG 90s Roddenbery trying to kill and bury 60s “Trek is Hornblower in Space” Roddenbery.
I read twice now and I still have no idea what you’re saying.
“TNG says your need for souls is you tricking yourself into thinking your anything more that the desktop on your desk that when a better version comes along suicide and eugenics are acceptable options ”
What?
I understand: TNG says your need for souls is you tricking yourself into thinking your anything more THAN the desktop on your desk. That when a better version OF YOU comes along, THEN suicide and eugenics are acceptable options (BECAUSE NOW YOU ARE DISPOSABLE).
Just my interpretation of his words
OK thanks. Yeah disagree though because that’s not how life is viewed in Star Trek. It’s the opposite in fact that every life, no matter how small or fragile is still just as important as every other life and deserve to be treated equally and with the same protections just as super advanced life. Picard himself believed that more than anyone. This is a guy who fought for the rights of nanobots when he learned they were conscious life in ‘Evolution’. It ALL matters to him, period, ‘better’ version or not. That’s just an extreme and paranoid view but I wouldn’t expect anything less than Cmd. Bremmon on this subject lol.
Agree with you 100% Tiger2. Your post reminds me of a verse in Coleridge’s The Rime of the Ancient Mariner
He prayeth best, who loveth best
All things both great and small;
For the dear God who loveth us,
He made and loveth all.
I think even a secular, agnostic mind can find a truth in that.
I won’t lie, but I had to look that up lol. But yeah Star Trek has always been about preserving all life, so even if people could all suddenly get synth bodies it doesn’t mean everyone else is just disposable. How do you even arrive at that that conclusion? That’s just silly because a life is still a life, whether you are an Ocampan that lives up to 9 years or Q that lives forever, its still equally valued.
Yes. Soong could engineer souls. Or, at least, he was capable of creating a creature that could develop its own soul. Same with Dr. Zimmerman.
Yes, great point Legate Damar. And none of this is new in science fiction or even theoretical science obviously. There is a belief that if you make something so intelligent it will develop its own consciousness. How true that is, who knows (I mean literally who would actually know lol) but IS an intriguing thought and EXACTLY why Data and the synths are considered equal life as biological life because they all think for themselves and believe in self preservation. In science fiction, that’s when we know an AI has achieved consciousness because their first thought it to usually wipe us out lol. I joke but basically suggests its going beyond its programming, ie, free will. As humans that’s how we know we are conscious, we make our own decisions even if we still can’t explain why we even exists, but we realize we do exist.
But that’s the other thing, NO ONE can explain what consciousness really is today or how its developed. No one has a clue how it actually works. We only ASSUME consciousness is purely biological because that’s all we know obviously. And even then we make a stark difference between what is ‘sentient’ since we live on a planet with billions of other biological life forms on it and yet we don’t consider them equal to us although they are clearly conscious and living life, just not at our intelligence level. So the whole idea of consciousness is tricky in general. And in the world of Star Trek its even MORE complex because what they consider life exceeds what we consider life. That’s where that moniker ‘strange new worlds and civilizations’ comes into play because it could be in forms none of us here are prepared to consider what is life beyond what we consider it today.
I still must insist that “What little Girls made of” clearly predates “Return to Tomorrow”
No, you’re right, I just don’t actually remember much about the episode itself or how it relates to the topic. I don’t think I’ve seen it in decades now.
I know this might sound silly but at one time, the human heart was once considered the organ that generated everything from great emotion and happiness and even today many connect it with emotional love. I may be wrong but I don’t think too many would think one’s emotional and spiritual makeup might change when they have a transplant or in Picard’s case they get an artificial heart? As for the soul, well that question is just full of possibilities.
It is about a lost ancient civilization of androids. Kirk’s consciousness is copied into an android body and an android commits suicide. Does that sound familar? ;)
LOL, I think I have to rewatch that episode now!
ask Roger Korby
Synths are people too.
Star Ships are people too.
Maybe Discovery is in Calypso, and maybe Alice from Voyager is, but otherwise we haven’t really seen any starships that can claim personhood.
The point is there is no reason why they couldn’t be considered that way. Given what we have seen from other AI’s.
That’s why I’m actually excited about seeing Zora again. I think she actually COULD be considered sentient and therefore Discovery itself could be considered a living entity by the time she becomes conscious. So you’re right, it’s definitely possible if Zora is considered a living being and a starship could claim personhood.
It’s really crazy all the AI stories this team is doing. Between Zora, Soji, Control and now Picard himself it’s really making us think a lot about these issues I haven’t really thought about since Voyager left the air and that was only concerning the Doctor.
you have a limited view of what constitutes life based on factors you cannot possibly know for sure. You have faith in the existence of the soul (as do I ) but you cannot possibly know the full extent of the depths of the soul.
Short notion: animals having no soul is one of the classic ways to devalue their lives and comitting all kinds of atrocities…
The concept of a soul is therefore something to elevate humans above other life forms, deeming us children of god (or something…), thus is inherently speciesist.
Picard is now “charting the unknown possibilities of existence” as Q said he would at the end of ‘All Good Things…’
Big question is when it will be filming again because probably not in 2020 due to current world situation.
Shelve Picard Season 2.
Shelve Section 31.
Star Trek PIKE. NOW!!
AGREED!!
WARP SPEED!!!
Also they should use those sets to make a movie of Diane Carey’s FINAL FRONTIER! How awesome would that be?!?! Have Hemsworth as Kirk’s Dad!! Maybe even through in the Doctor from House, give her a part!
No more precuels.
I really wish Geordi got to say goodbye to Hugh or Data, or at the very least, that they mentioned him before dying.
It would also be nice to get some closure with Dr. Crusher.
The whole show would have made much more sense with LaForge as the lead anyway.
Would be funny if AI Picard actually wants to be human and have human relationships/emotions where organic Picard wanted the order and non-emotionalism of being an AI life form like Data. LOL The grass is always greener on the other side?
Picard didn’t want to be an AI like data. He was just bad at expressing his emotions.
Uh huh, ok. I didn’t see him lamenting the loss of Tasha Yar or Riker’s kid whom he lost on his watch. Or even the billions of Romulans he let down as Admiral of the rescue armada. So either Picard doesn’t believe he is responsible for the conduct of the crew under his command (possible, he is no JTK) or he really had a real soft spot regarding AI. Now was that subconscious or conscious, I don’t know/care.
He spent fourteen years sulking in his vineyard over all the Romulans he lost. He was sad about Tasha’s death, but he wasn’t as close to her as he was to Data, and she didn’t sacrifice her life for his.
Only for Data to actually want to be dead? The irony!
That is a good point. The only friendship that even kinda sorta appeared on screen was between Geordi and Data.
Sort of like on TOS you only really saw Kirk and Bones hanging out on TOS but you are sort of suppose to believe they are all life long friends.
That is true. The only friendship really depicted in TOS was the Kirk-Spock-McCoy one. The rest were more like what we saw on TNG. There was respect for the Captain. There was professionalism among the crew. But we ought not confuse friendliness with friendship. The only signs of actual friendship didn’t come until the features. In TSFS they all were invited to Kirk’s home but that could be considered a friendly meeting although at his home could suggest they have a deeper bond than just a professional one. But it still could go either way. Then in TFF we see Chekov and Sulu spending off time together. This really suggests a friendship. But it is the only time I can think of where the bridge crew displayed something that could be considered more than friendly colleagues.
Eric, I do agree something felt missing that Hugh never got to see Geordi again. It would’ve been nice if he got a mentioned when Picard saw him.
As far as Beverly, I’m pretty sure we will see her again. It is odd she is literally the ONLY character from TNG that didn’t get one reference. I don’t know if that was purposely done or they didn’t think about it. I assume its the former at least because how could they not think about her, especially considering she was probably the closest to Picard among everyone.
Enough with the endless “it’s not going to be a bunch of people in uniforms explorng space” spiel already! I mean, ffs, would it be SO bad to do something like that again?
This is TNG, not Wagon Train to the Stars where we are sooo happy over Riker having pizza in the holodeck because I don’t know, childhood memories or something.
I’ve come to accept the time I wasted with TNG as a kid was a SUNK COST.
Guinan, whom I liked as a character, should be on Pike’s 1701!!!!!
We’ve got that in Discovery. And we’ll have that in Lower Decks. And any future movies will likely be about that. Its nice to change things up a little bit with Picard.
I sure didn’t see that in Discovery. I don’t think even Discovery knew what they were. They probably still don’t.
As Legate Damar said we have that with Discovery now. We will probably get it in other shows as well. I think with Picard, they did that for nearly 200 episodes and four films, I can understand why Stewart doesn’t want to do that anymore even though for some people that will always be the basis of Star Trek to them, searching for new life and civilizations.
Sir Pat Stew didn’t want to do that again. He was right. Picard was a great show, and thankfully not season 8 of TNG.
This is pretty exciting! Yes, happy that Guinan is coming! My guess is she will be far from the only one in TNG and the other shows. But its very very early.
And I have to agree with their point about why they didn’t the show the Enterprise in the finale. It would’ve felt amazing on one hand but then a ‘that’s it????’ vibe on another considered Riker showed up for maybe three minutes lol. And we all know its coming, especially now. My guess is they probably want to use it the way it was used in Discovery and be pivotal in the story even if its just for episode. It’s NOT that important either way, but we’re fans. ;)
Anyway looking forward to all the news about season 2. Season 1 wasn’t amazing but overall a good season so I’m hoping season 2 can build on that.
Dreading a John Eaves designed Enterprise, especially if those monstrosities in the finale are any indication.
I didn’t particularly like the Enterprise E, but the look didn’t take away from me enjoying First Contact nor did it add anything to Nemesis. That said, I hope they can come up with something revolutionary but still familiar. We shall see. As for the finale, if we can believe Riker, they were designed for defense. I hope the new Enterprise is still a ship of exploration.
The Novel “Last Best Hope” establishes that Worf was given the Enterprise E when Picard left to command the Verity for the Romulan rescue mission, however that was 14 years prior to this. If you go by STO the Odyssey class Enterprise F doesn’t launch until 2409, obviously different timeline now, but they’ve taken plenty of design inspiration from STO already. I wouldn’t complain if they lifted the Odyssey class for an Ent F, even better if Worf were still in command!
“It’s never going to be just a show about the crew of a starship that’s part of Starfleet and everyone’s wearing uniforms and they’re flying around, encountering alien life and weird planets” well Mr. Chabon… that´s exactly what we all want….
That is not what Sir Patrick signed up for so I don’t think Picard will ever be that. Perhaps the proposed Pike, Spock, Number One, Enterprise show will be just that. We shall see. And maybe we will see a bit more of that in Discovery S3.
That may be what you want. Don’t speak for all of us.
“The only thing I can tell you is we hope not to do it in precisely the way you expect, and yet to satisfy you nevertheless.“
Got to subvert those expectations!
Where the frak is BEVERLY???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I believe why they didn’t use the Enterprise E is because it’s a movie ship, and at the time of production, CBS and Paramount were still separate companies, and for legal contract reasons, they couldn’t use it.
Now everything is fair game. :-)