There are a lot of Star Trek shows in production, but surprisingly, we have not yet seen any crossovers between them. But the man in charge of Star Trek for Paramount+ is already thinking of how to do just that, and he is also still holding out hope for that Section 31 series.
Kurtzman has crossovers on his mind
Alex Kurtzman and Sonequa Martin-Green were guests on the new episode of Deadline’s Hero Nation podcast, with the bulk of the discussion focused on Michael Burnham’s journey to becoming captain of the USS Discovery on Star Trek: Discovery. But the hosts did query Kurtzman on the larger Star Trek Universe of television shows on Paramount+. With five shows now in various stages of production (and others reported to be in development), Kurtzman admitted it’s getting complicated. When simply asked what show will arrive after Discovery season four, Kurtzman said “I should know the answer to this question, except that now we have so many shows, and they’re moving around so much that I can’t keep track anymore.”
With so much Star Trek going on, Kurtzman was asked if we are “going to see some significant crossovers.” While not providing any specific plans, Kurtzman revealed crossovers have been on his mind:
It’s really funny that you asked that question because I was just thinking about it this morning… Here’s the thing about crossovers; I think crossovers are can be really, really exciting. But they have to exist for a reason. There has to be a great story reason to do it. And it has to move both shows forward in a way. And it does feel both of you are right, that inevitably it’s coming somewhere somehow. But I think we want to be as intentional about doing something like that as we’ve been about our selection of shows and the way in which we’ve curated each show to have its own distinct identity.
Because the flip side to doing a crossover wrong is that people are really disappointed and it impacts both shows. So it’s just not a gamble that I would want to take randomly. that being said, it’s certainly exciting to think about certain pairings that you’re like ‘Wow, what would it be like if those two characters were together or those two crews were together?’ But I want to be careful about it. So I guess the most direct answer I can give you is it’s on my mind but I haven’t thought about a specific yet.
Crossovers are of course quite common for franchise television—and are not new to Star Trek either. All four of the shows following Star Trek: The Original Series series had crossover episodes (Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, Voyager, and Enterprise). And while the new Star Trek Universe shows have featured many characters and actors from legacy shows and there have been a number of plot points and references tying them together, we have yet to see any actors cross over with their characters.
And for the record, the next show confirmed to arrive on Paramount+ is Prodigy, which comes back from hiatus to continue season one (with five more episodes) on January 6th. Season two of Picard is arriving in February, and the first season of Strange New Worlds is expected to premiere in early 2022. The third season of Lower Decks and the second group of 10 episodes from the first season of Prodigy are expected later in 2022. There is no word yet on if or when there will be a fifth season of Discovery.
Section 31 is in an “exciting place”
In addition to the five shows Kurtzman has running, he is also developing more Star Trek for the future. He recently teased work on a Starfleet Academy series which has been rumored for years. But the podcast hosts asked the executive producer about a show that was announced as being in development way back in early 2019, specifically the “Section 31” series led by Michell Yeoh (or as the podcast referred to it, “the Emperor Philippa spin-off”). Kurtzman at first simply replied with “yes,” confirming the show was still in development, but when pressed, he said:
We’re in a very exciting place. I can’t tell you anything yet. But but it’s still very much alive.
This comment is similar to one he gave in early 2021 when he said the Section 31 show was “on a great track” and he was “very optimistic about it.” The third season of Star Trek: Discovery featured an extended arc for Michelle Yeoh’s character to set up the Section 31 series, culminating in a two-episode goodbye where she left the 32nd century via the Guardian of Forever. In 2019, a writers’ room was put together for the show, headed up by Discovery writer/producers Bo Yeon Kim and Erika Lippoldt. Since then, the writing partners have have moved on from Discovery and are now co-executive producers on the Netflix series Sweet Tooth.
Earlier this year, Kurtzman cited the pandemic as getting in the way of the Section 31 series going into production, but three other live-action Star Trek series have been filmed over the last year, and production on Picard season three is still ongoing. Another possible challenge could be the availability of star Michelle Yeoh: The actress has been consistently in demand, having recently appeared in Marvel’s Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. She has also been filming multiple Avatar sequels and just wrapped up production on the Netflix miniseries The Witcher: Blood Origin.
One big, recent change is the surprise announcement in November that ViacomCBS bought back the international rights to Star Trek: Discovery from Netflix. The original deal gave Netflix the first option on international streaming rights for any spin-offs of Discovery, so if that was a factor in holding up the show, it’s no longer a barrier.
Find more Star Trek Universe news and analysis at TrekMovie.com.
I totally agree with the crossover concept. It would be fun to see, but it needs to be done for a reason and not just “to do it.”
It’s a gimmick and a marketing ploy. Anthony Pascale was in marketing; that’s why he’s pushing it.
There will be a universe (Multiverse) ending thread. This time one that spreads across time. Probably something AI related. And only Michael Burnam alone can save all of time and space. It’s the only story Kurtzmann tells over and over. Why would it be anything different?
its time for Star Treks No Way Home – CumberKhan teaming up with fellow Khan like villains Nero, Shinzon, Soran,Kruge (& The Borg) vs Pine & Co (with a little Endgame help from ShatKirk. Picard, Archer,& Pike)
I like your ideas but PLEASE keep Khan 2.0 far away as possible. For no other reason that will only trigger most fans. ;)
Everyone else, fine! Would also love to see all the various Captain meet up from Archer to Picard and everyone in between. Also would love to see both Kirks meet up some day too, but that is feeling less and less likely after what happened with Orci’s script and both Pine and Shatner kind of iffy on if we will see them again (but I do suspect we will see Pine again, just not sure if it will be in the next film).
As for your basic idea, I do remember Brent Spiner waaaay back in the day suggesting something similar that if Nemesis didn’t bomb so badly then the next movie could’ve had different characters from the various shows fighting some of Trek’s biggest villains like Khan and the Borg Queen. I thought it was a bit too fan servicy (from someone who generally likes fan service when done right) but who knows? Things today have gotten crazy on every big Hollywood property out there with shared universes and now multiverses basically. So yeah, its possible for sure.
LOL, yeah, Brit Khan and Punjab Khan teaming up would be a truly awful idea.
I’m not sure that ShatKirk wheezing his way through a few lines wouldn’t trigger fans, either. Or elicit pity, likely a lot worse situation.
So no Janneway, Sisko or Burnham?
Honestly, that’s the last thing Trek needs right now. They won’t pay all those people though.
I lol when Kurtzman literally had no idea what show comes after Discovery. Yeah, it is getting VERY crowded there. And yes all the timelines do make things complicated, but I LOVE it! It’s what I always wanted in Star Trek, see shows in different eras at the same time, but no I didn’t expect to happen with five Star Trek shows at once lol.
And I don’t think anyone is shocked about future crossovers. The day Picard was announced, I immediately assumed there would be a crossover between that show and Discovery some day. Of course that’s before we knew Discovery was boldly going 900 years into the future, so hopes were dashed after that lol. But its still Star Trek, so anything is possible. And admittedly that makes it harder to do with all the new shows since they all take place in different years. In the 90s, all the shows and films were concurrent to each other with TOS being the odd man out but still found ways to include those characters too here and there.
But I would love to see real life versions of the Lower Decks crew show up on Picard (Mariner will still be an ensign ;)) or the crew of SNW somehow end up in the 24th century in an episode or two meeting Riker, Janeway or Seven. Or they travel back in time and meet Archer and the gang aboard the first Enterprise. And Q is also back who can snap his fingers to anywhere and when, so that makes these ideas much easier to do. Bring in the Kelvin universe too! Anything is possible now!
I’m so glad Kurtzman has no idea as showrunner, we could all get paid his freaking salary and say the same rubbish.
If Paramount were smart they could plan a Star Trek MCU, they got there with the TV shows in the 90s. You do solo movies of different crews and do Avengers type events bringing them all together for event movies.
Hell I’ll do it for $1 Million, I don’t need what they paying this guy to bring a clue to the table.
People have been clamoring for Star Trek to do what MCU did in the movies, but I just don’t really see that happening. The biggest reason is that the movies will probably have to make both a lot more money and put out many more movies in the process. I just don’t see either happening looking at how much the next movie has been flailing to even get off the ground. I hate to say this AS a Star Trek fan, but I just don’t think Trek is big enough to try it with films. With the shows, that’s clearly different as it is much more successful on TV and they are putting out a lot of content so its just easier to do.
Now that said, what I CAN see are the films being tied closer to the shows themselves. You can do stuff like build story lines in the shows and carry them into the films and of course have both TV and movie characters cross over. They KIND OF did that in the TNG films by at least referencing the Dominion War and we saw characters from VOY at least make cameos but yeah it was all very lightly done.
It would be nice to do something much more directly like how Agents of Shields originally followed story lines of the MCU movies. But unlike that show, have the Trek TV characters and their story lines show up in the films as well. Of course all this can really only happen if the movies goes back to the Prime universe which I’m guessing they will.
And of course now that everything will be tied to Paramount+, it makes even more sense to do and can build a big library where everything is just now tied in together like what the MCU shows and films are doing on Disney+.
Crossovers should be saved for feature films.
Kurtzman sounds like he’s talking about the TV shows though. That’s really where the priority is and it’s much easier to do because they have the time and multiple time periods to set up whatever they want. And to be honest, it would be hard to do in the films IF the next movie is with a new cast and crew. They would want them to get their own footing first. If it’s with the Kelvin crew, which it could be, that would be great but very doubtful the next movie would involve a crossover which is already two years away and honestly, it could be more than that at this point.
I’d much rather see a crossover limited series that takes it time.
I dunno, Star Trek is rarely at its best in film form. Which is not to say that some of the films are not brilliant, but the most Trek-like films have also been the ones that could probably have been better presented as multi-part episodes or limited series.
Give Rainn Wilson his own show as Harry Mudd, as he navigates the underworld of the Federation.
That’s already what the section 31 show will most likely do.
Honestly, if it was one or the other I would rather see a Starfleet Academy show than a Section 31 show. Consider the weight of that comment.
I think this could be a fun limited series idea, especially considering a Harry Mudd spinoff almost happened in the 60s.
Excellent news! So excited! It’s just like when Flash met Supergirl!
Finally Star Trek has a cinematic universe like the Arrowverse. It’s about time. Kurzman has delivered on something Star Trek has never had before: an expansive, interconnected and intersectional universe where tolerance and diversity are championed.
Who’s looking forward for Michael Burnham going toe to toe with Q?
Or Kirk and Raffi on a mission with Seven of Nine and Neelix?
Or Wesley and Stamets figuring out the base code of the universe!
Or Boimler and Data reconstructing Lore to fight an army of Dooplers?
This is gonna be EPIC!
This is sarcasm, right? Surely it’s sarcasm.
Just focus on telling good science fiction Kurtzman… If you did that you wouldn’t need to rely on fan-service.
Hasn’t Kurtzman been focusing on *great* science fiction this whole time?
Discovery has given us the spore drive and the mycelial network as well as programmable matter. Not only that, but it has given us an emotional roller coaster with tense family dynamics that adhere to the key tenets of Star Trek.
Picard has given us fractal neural cloning and golem android bodies. They now have those same Android bodies in discovery. The universe is now explicitly connected in a way that it never was before. They never did that in any previous Star Trek with such an explicit link.
Kurtzman Trek is more up to date science fiction (let’s not forget the tardigrade plot and DASH drive was based on real science) than TNG, DS9, etc. could ever hope to be. A Dyson sphere? Don’t make me laugh. Even Dyson didn’t propose that, he proposed a ring if anything. The “science” of that era is nowhere near as good as it is now.
And the connectivity of the new Star Trek Universe is already so much tighter than it was before. Need we be reminded of the blunder of the USS Melbourne? Is it a nebula class or an excelsior class? The DS9 team didn’t care that it was the former when they portrayed it as the latter. The people making “flashback” didn’t care that it was two months between praxis exploding and the peace envoy from Gorkon. They said it was 2 days!!!
The potential to properly do a serious crossover with these characters is so great that I think the only team who could possibly do it justice is the current creative team.
Are you just trolling? I honestly can’t tell.
No, I’m trying to make a point about the narrative approach Star Trek is taking at the moment. I appreciate your replies and that you’re not just dismissing them as “trolling” :)
I guess the difference between the old and new Trek is that the only time there was ever a storyline that intersected with more than one show was with the Maquis story as this affected TNG s7, DS9 s2, and VOY s1 at almost the same time. That had never happened before and it hasn’t really happened since. Everything else in the previous shows was (As has been pointed out here), purely referential.
Now, thanks to the “Star Trek Universe”, we can potentially have one storyline happening and four different live action shows (DSC, PIC, SNW and S31) dealing with different elements of that same story. Just like the Arrowverse Crisis storylines or the stories running through the MCU (what with the infinity stones and whatnot).
That has never happened in Star Trek before. The shows were, for all intents and purposes, separate – and that’s why we can quickly list references and tiny crossovers, because there weren’t that many of them to start with. TNG, DS9 and VOY largely kept to themselves.
Take the Dominion War, for instance. That happened on DS9. It didn’t affect the TNG films at all (ok, they reference it in INS and NEM, but they’re throwaway lines. The Dominion War had no impact on the TNG storyline and the Enterprise was, presumably just going about its daily business of doing archaeology and such while Sisko was battling the Founders). It definitely didn’t affect VOY apart from that one episode where Torres has a meltdown, but she’s fine the following week. The only time there was a storyline that had *lasting effects* across *multiple shows simultaneously* was, as I’ve said, in relation to the Maquis.
Star Trek can now operate more like the Arrowverse or the MCU. Or even like the Beta Canon stories – there’s been a pretty consistent story running through the books for the last 20 years or so (this site even reported on it coming to a close because it doesn’t sync with PIC). The establishment of a truly interconnected, comic-book-like cinematic universe for Star Trek allows for the same kind of storytelling we see in Flash, Supergirl, Batwoman, etc. or in Iron Man, Avengers, etc.
That’s what I mean when I say the shows are truly connected now. It’s deeper than just referential name dropping. We will be able to have a nuanced and multifaceted story where different elements are dealt with on each show and they can come together in an epic crossover just like “Crisis on Infinite Earths”. Ok, my initial post was a little hyperbolic, but who doesn’t want to see Ethan Phillips reprise his role as Neelix to work with other characters to stop a multiverse-ending event? It’s gonna be great!
No offense, but you’re still waaaaay over thinking all of this. I mean, go back to what Alex Kurtzman actually said in the article. All he stated was he like to see some of the shows cross over, which again has already been done on Star Trek in the past, right? And it doesn’t even sound like there is any real set plans. It just sounds like something he’s considering now because like everyone he’s looking at the entertainment landscape today and seeing how aggressive the idea of crossovers are becoming, especially in the comic book arena.
But all he said was if they ever do it, it may be between two shows since none of the new shows has actually done it yet. Sure maybe it will be something more ambitious, but it doesn’t sound like it’s going to be some big Kevin Feige inspired crossover where suddenly all the Captains from every show are fighting the Borg or involved in the Temporal Wars. At least not yet.
What’s funny about this is he’s saying this because all of his shows are separate now, aren’t they? That’s the point, there ISN’T a built in crossover in his shows now. There is canon consistency like using the Qowat Milat in both Picard and Discovery, but that’s not actual crossovers. That’s actually like how the Maquis was done in the 24th century shows, right? But you talk as if these shows are doing something radically different or structured to interact with one another when the irony is it’s the complete opposite due to them being in so many different timelines from each other. The Arrowverse and MCU happens because the shows don’t take place literally centuries apart from each other and run concurrently. ;) I even stated that problem in my OP here. That’s the main issue more than anything.
I mean, how can you create an ‘Arrowverse’ if SNW, Picard and Discovery are all literally 100+ years away from each other?? In Discovery’s case, it’s basically nearly a millennium away from everything else in canon.
What he seems to be suggesting is he wants to rectify that to some degree and find ways for the shows to still crossover in spite of that; but needs a real idea to do it since none of them are currently running in the same period. So you keep throwing out ‘Arrowverse’ and ‘MCU’ when he’s not remotely suggesting that in his statement. And guess what, if he wanted these shows to geared towards that level of interconnectedness, then they wouldn’t all be years apart from each other in the first place, right?
And of course the bigger irony was there was a time (a short one) where fans thought Discovery and a Pike show would inhabit the same time period if a Pike show happened. And then what did we see? They tossed Discovery 900 years into the future lol. So yeah.
But I agree with you, the past shows weren’t as interconnected like other franchises today. But dude, you can say that about ALL the other franchises at the same time as well. DC for example could’ve made movies or shows that connected characters from various properties more, but back then people didn’t watch everything like we do today so there was always a fear if you connect too many things you will lose people. It’s literally why serialization itself was frowned upon a lot of shows back then including Star Trek itself. Today it’s all very different. But it was still a shared universe, just not at the level like MCU was, that’s all.
But again, there is NOTHING that Kurtzman even said that would suggest that’s what he wants with Star Trek. Sure, many of us fans want to see that! But the guy didn’t say anything beyond the equivalent he like to see Burnham show up on Picard or something; which again was already done countless times in past Star Trek shows and films.
No. The spore drive is space fantasy. It’s basis in science is a lot more far fetched than warp drive. Concepts that were developed in the 60’s were giving meaning and explanation as the property aged, but still had more solid basis in science than the spore drive.
The ultimate problem with Discovery is that they’ve moved Trek away from big idea science fiction and bold morality tales so they could focus on character as opposed to plot. They finagle inorganic and unrealistic plot devices so they can advance the characters. That’s their ‘story’ reason for everything. They turned a device (the Guardian of forever) into a sentient being that could suddenly go anywhere it wanted, and could cross timelines. Why? Because they had to get Georgiou back to the original timeline and future show and couldn’t come up with something original and interesting to do it. So they made the Guardian something it never was to suit their own needs. This is not good Sci Fi, it’s a soap opera set in the Star Trek universe.
Star Trek has been a shared universe since 1987. This is nothing new and we have seen multiple crossovers in both the shows and movies for decades now. It’s always been there, they are only saying none of the NEW shows have done it with each other yet. But even then, they have crossed over a lot of legacy characters in practically every new show now.
I respectfully disagree. They were going to call the defiant the valiant but they couldn’t because voyager began with a V. Rick Berman thought they couldn’t have two shows where the ships started with a v else the audience would get confused. In a truly shared universe, like the Arrowverse, things like that can be shared and the audience is *expected* to watch all the shows so they understand the references.
When they talk about “Gotham” on the Flash, I know what they mean because it’s a *shared universe*. Had they called the defiant the valiant back in the day, fans would have mistaken Sisko’s ship for Janeway’s – especially before they changed the uniforms.
These days, thanks to streaming and the massive improvement in production and storytelling in Star Trek, we can see *exactly* the same plot points, characterological figures, sociopolitical commentary, etc. across *all* of Star Trek simultaneously.
There was no way to do any of that in the old Star Trek. They couldn’t even maintain continuity between Star Trek III and Star Trek IV! And it was the same director! Why reconfigure the Klingon BoP bridge?
When Flash visited Oliver Queen, the sets looked identical. Because the universe was connected properly. It’s so cool that Star Trek can finally have this kind of connectivity.
If you’re actually arguing that the old shows weren’t a shared universe, I strongly urge you to put the pipe down and detox.
There’s so much evidence to support the idea that they weren’t.
Take the Trill – when they were introduced they looked way different to the way Dax looked.
The Ferengi were space pirates in TNG but Uber capitalists in DS9.
We needed whole scenes in “emissary” and “way of the warrior” to explain who O’Brien and Worf were respectively. Fans of DS9 were not expected to be familiar with TNG.
Sisko had to explain who *Riker* was in “defiant”.
They weren’t allowed to use the Borg on ds9 because they “belonged” to VOY.
And voyager went to the delta quadrant to get away from the same old tropes of tng – the Klingons the Romulans the cardassians. They deliberately partitioned off the universe so that they were separate.
And then when Barclay showed up on VOY we needed scenes to explain who he was because fans of VOY hadn’t seen the episodes of TNG that Barclay was in.
Now, fans of DSC all watch PIC and everyone knows what’s happening thanks to better writing for streaming. Thus, direct links between the shows where the same things (e.g. golem bodies) can be done without massive amounts of exposition.
They never did the same thing twice on the old shows because the universe wasn’t connected enough. Kurtzman has single handedly made trek a proper cinematic universe.
You’re confusing production differences to story. This is why people think Discovery wasn’t part of the prime universe when it premiered. You’re waaaaaay over thinking it. A shared universe simply means that everything in it is recognized as sharing the same story and background together. That’s it. And Star Trek does that in abundance.
It’s all connected. Why do you think people freaked out when they saw differences when Discovery began in the first place? And the irony is the ONLY reason why Discovery is in the 32nd century is because fans felt it didn’t look close enough to TOS visuals, which Kurtzman was 100% OK with before the backlash. So this idea Kurtzman himself made it into a cinematic universe is a bit laughable. Its been that way long before he showed up.
Ah, I see the disconnect here. You misunderstand the meaning of the term “shared universe.” None of that rules it out.
Dude none of this makes sense lol. I have no idea what you’re saying here. Star Trek is one of the biggest shared universes out there because of the various time periods and officially being a multiverse thanks to the Kelvin Timeline. It’s ALL connected, that’s all a shared universe means.
If you have Riker showing up on DS9, VOY, ENT, PIC and LDS and it’s all suppose to be the same guy, that’s what make its a shared universe, not just the sets.
This is how you know how connected your universe is:
If you’re referencing a character that is from a thousand years ago in canon from a show from 20 years ago, that’s how shared universes works. You don’t even need the characters to physically show up, simply acknowledge or reference them.
Ok let’s take some more examples – for instance, the battle of wolf 359. In the wreckage shown in TNG there is evidence of New Orleans class ships, freedom class, constitution class, and nebula class wrecks. Now, in “emissary”, suddenly there is an excelsior class ship, an ambassador class, and whatever class the Saratoga was. There is no evidence for these ships in “best of both worlds”. Furthermore, admiral Hansen says the Klingons are sending ships – there are *no* Klingon ships at all shown in “emissary”.
Sticking with DS9, we have a visual reboot in the form of the uniforms – the shows don’t even look alike. And when VOY came on, they changed the DS9 uniforms so fans wouldn’t be confused. Fans of each respective show weren’t expected to engage with the other. Unlike now, where we all watch everything.
This is why we needed the scene in “defiant” where Sisko needed to explain – to the audience – who the heck commander Riker was. Dukat was a surrogate for the audience in that scene. People couldn’t be expected to know that there was this one time on TNG where some wibbly wobbly transporter stuff happened and Riker was duplicated. The shows were separate. They existed in their own separate spheres and they never truly crossed over.
In DSC we see the true design of Pike’s enterprise represented exactly the same in PIC – so we know it is the *same ship* – unlike the aforementioned USS Melbourne, which morphed into an excelsior class ship from TNG to DS9.
Another example can be seen with the Borg. We never see TNG Borg on VOY, do we? The cubes are smaller on VOY than in tng (compare the relative size of the cube against the 1701-D and then versus the voyager), because the shows weren’t that well connected. Production values are irrelevant because to make the links between the so-called connected universe previously, we would have needed things to be identical. Does the Flash have a different suit when he turns up on Supergirl? Nope. Because the Arrowverse shows are totally consistent *in-universe*. The earlier trek shows have numerous inconsistencies which, combined with the behind the scenes stuff, illustrate just how disconnected the universe actually was.
Even the films were affected. In “relics” Scotty talks of Jim Kirk pulling the enterprise out of mothballs to rescue him on the Jenolan. How could Kirk do that when Scotty knew Kirk to be dead after he was sucked out into the Nexus ribbon on the Enterprise-B? Scotty went to the Jenolan *after* he was on the Enterprise-B. And just how old was Enterprise in Star Trek III? Twenty years? Forty years? Admiral Morrow couldn’t do math? Plus, we see the Borg, the Romulans (with warp ships and cloaks) as well as the Ferengi on ENT. Fans have been debating that one for years – is ENT in a different timeline? Had the universe been truly shared and well connected, basic gaffes like these couldn’t happen.
In PIC we see DSC era ships – both shuttles and full starships (at utopia Planitia in PIC for instance where we see the exact same ships from DSC). We have clear and consistent references between shows. This is what makes the Star Trek Universe so truly connected now. Not some loose conglomeration of story elements from 30 years ago. Direct and explicit links that have been developed for modern audiences. Kurtzman truly gets 21st century TV and Star Trek is better off for his involvement.
Personally I can’t wait to see how these crossovers develop going forward! It’s a great time to be a Trekkie!
I appreciate you for taking the time for explaining your points, but it’s all over the place. All you are doing is cherry picking production designs or mistakes like Scotty calling out Kirk’s name on TNG. That’s not the point of a shared universe. Just because Sisko explained who Riker is just an odd argument. The fact that Riker is there is what makes it a shared universe in the first place. He was probably explained because maybe they thought some of the audience who watched DS9 didn’t watch TNG. Yes, probably a tiny audience, but still. It doesn’t mean they are two different universes, right?
And what’s funny is you use the Discovery version of the Enterprise as an example we are in a ‘true’ shared universe although you conveniently forgot TNG, DS9 and ENT all presented the original Enterprise/Constitution class as it was on TOS (in TNG case, the original bridge). Did you also forget Discovery conveniently changed the look of their Klingons between seasons 1 and 2? Did you also notice the Klingons in Lower Decks looks nothing like the Klingons on Discovery? Also why do the Klingon Bird of Prey on Lower Decks look different than Discovery’s as well? Because they made a different production decision. That happens from time to time, on different shows. You went into an argument of how DS9 had different uniforms from TNG but then just overlook the fact there were two (very) different uniforms between Discovery crew and Pike’s Enterprise crew? What’s the difference????
If you want to nit pick this stuff, you can do that between the current shows right now and they are only a few seasons old. Give it 18 years. ;)
But none of this has anything to do with it being a shared universe or not. You’re confusing what a shared universe means. Now you can argue they didn’t do a good job in creating one, that’s fine, but to say it isn’t when it’s one of the most famous shared universes for the last 35 years and gets bigger and bigger is bizarre.
What I find pretty funny and ironic about this entire discussion is Kurtzman complained the old shows looked too much a like. He claimed the audiences couldn’t tell the difference because they used a lot of the same designs. Now you’re arguing it was actually the complete opposite and the shows looked TOO different from each other lol.
Regardless, it’s ALL one big universe, period. There will be production differences because you have multiple shows spread out over decades and over 800 hours of TV. So yeah.
All good points :) I think I’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Basically, we can argue whether it was a cinematic universe before or not, but before Kurtzman, there was no “Star Trek Universe”. He made that happen and now we have a Star Trek equivalent to the Arrowverse or the MCU. Star Trek is essentially the same as those properties now, and that’s cool. I can’t wait to see how it develops!
Making a ‘shared universe’ wasn’t really a goal back then. It wasn’t articulated as this kind of thing to aspire to for a ‘franchise’. Now, it’s all about serialization, which I think makes it harder to have a crossover. With Episodic TV, you could literally pop someone in for an episode or two. Now.. it takes intense planning and set up to make it work. They’ve been connected all this in DiscoTrek since it the end of Season One, so it’s happening. But an all encompassing teamup event? I don’t think that’ll work at all.
Again… you don’t seem to understand what the term “shared universe” means.
I really need to chime in on this thread but I’m not entirely sure I have the strength to argue. Star Trek TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT and TMP all the way to NEMESIS are part of the shared universe. Lets look at the facts
1) TNG featured Bones in the pilot.
2) Relics featured Scotty after he had been locked into a diagnostic cycle in a transporter for 75 years… likely that he was a bit out disoriented from the experience.
3) the observation lounge featured models of the previous Enterprises including 1701 and 1701-A.
4) In TNG “Naked Now” they referenced an incident from TOS, and in other episodes we saw other TOS tv & movie references.
5) DS9 started with the ENT D dropping off crew and supplies including O’Brien transfering.
6) Sisko held a grudge against Picard for his actions as Locutus.
7) Best of Both Worlds involved multiple engagements with the borg. judt because you didnt see same wreckage and same ships doesnt mean it was the exact same location and timing,
8) TNG visited DS9 during “Birthright”
9) Riker talked with Quark on subspace to discuss the Duras sisters who appeared in TNG and DS9.
10) Q appeared in TNG, DS9, and VOY. He referenced Picard on both DS9 and TNG.
11) Sisko and Janeway know who Picard is
12) Undiscovered Country events on VOY through Tuvok’s memories. Talked of Kirk, spock and McCoy
13) Voyager was at DS9 in Caretaker episode.
14) Troi and Barclay on VOY
15) Admiral Janeway and Picard talk in Nemesis
16) DS9 and VOY used the same uniforms for a couple years, DS9 got the FC uniforms only because it made sense that starfleet updated the kit. Production reason? Films had more money for that stuff and it trickled to the shows afterward x thats why the borg in VOY look different than TNG. They matched the FC borg,
I’ve got a million more reasons why they are all part of a connected universe. But Ikm sure I made my point.
I’m not disputing that those events took place by the way. And people have talked of a so called canon of Star Trek prior to modern Trek.
But as I’ve said above, we now have a bona fide “Star Trek Universe” which we’ve never had before. There is now no way that they’re *not* connected, whereas before, the various inconsistencies I mentioned introduced violations of the previously established canon (if we even want to call it that).
Discovery is basically the “original” series – kind of like how “Arrow” kicked things off for the CW, or how “Iron Man” started the MCU. Star Trek is now playing at the same level as those more mainstream properties with the “Star Trek Universe”. I can’t wait to see how it expands with “strange new worlds” and “section 31”. The potential for awesome crossovers is massive!
Here’s the problem. The rights holders to Star Trek have interconnected everything, by choice. Modern Star Trek is not an actual reboot.. they’ve gone overboard to constantly tell us that the entire property is all part of one big canonical Trek. Now.. anyone can make a case that they have or have not done a good job fitting stories in to canon, and I’d say since Discovery they’ve done a very poor job with it.. and I’d have preferred they did a hard reboot of the property with all the liberties they’ve taken.. but that doesn’t change that Discovery is as much a part of the shared universe as TOS is. It’s just a fact. Not one that is decided by fans, but by the owners of the properties and the creatives they’ve hired.
The best job anyone did to seperate things is JJ Trek. It didn’t violate canon, it created a new universe separate from the ‘Prime Timeline’ that freed it from canon. Discovery kind of tried that by going 1000 years in the future, but oddly enough, they keep using old ideas and things from the past in canon instead of truly forging ahead. The evidence is all there, and the creatives for the right holders are telling us, it’s not a new universe. The whole thing is shared and interconnected.
Look, in my head Discovery and the Kurtzmann properties are a soft reboot. When I watch TOS, I don’t have thoughts of Michael Burnham in my head as Spock’s tether. I like to pretend that the Spock I grew up with never had the events depicted in Discovery happen. But it’s not up to me. I wish what you’re saying was true… but it’s not.
“The best job anyone did to separate things is JJ Trek. It didn’t violate canon, it created a new universe separate from the ‘Prime Timeline’ that freed it from canon. Discovery kind of tried that by going 1000 years in the future, but oddly enough, they keep using old ideas and things from the past in canon instead of truly forging ahead. The evidence is all there, and the creatives for the right holders are telling us, it’s not a new universe. The whole thing is shared and interconnected.”
Agree with you so much on this! I’ve said this in the past, one of the best things the Abrams films did was create it’s own universe so it can simply tell its own stories but still feel connected to the prime universe thanks to Spock. It’s both separate and connected at the same time. Of course the PROBLEM was they didn’t make that clear enough in the movie itself and people saw the opposite and that the movies overwrote the prime universe which was a HUGE mistake and frankly created a lot of problems. Now of course, it’s FINALLY been resolved in canon thanks to both Discovery and Picard that was never the case, but it shouldn’t have taken this long to make that clear.
But I will also admit that the other problem with the Kelvin universe is that you can’t really cross over with the other shows and why many fans didn’t really get attach to those films and why they went back to the Prime universe in the first place because it’s both the history and interconnectedness why so many fans love that universe now. They didn’t want all of that just ignored and for the new movies to just be this other thing. Again, I thought it was fine and I ALWAYS knew the prime universe was coming back anyway but that probably was the other issue.
“Look, in my head Discovery and the Kurtzmann properties are a soft reboot. When I watch TOS, I don’t have thoughts of Michael Burnham in my head as Spock’s tether. I like to pretend that the Spock I grew up with never had the events depicted in Discovery happen. But it’s not up to me. I wish what you’re saying was true… but it’s not.”
That is part of the other strange irony about this entire discussion. Dr C is talking about Discovery as if it created it’s own universe like the Kelvin movies did when it’s part of the Prime universe like all the others and HENCE a shared universe. It’s such an odd argument. Discovery is NOT doing its own thing, it’s part of the same canon as everything else. That’s ironically the entire reason why it’s in the 32nd century now because it felt too much like a reboot and not part of the original universe like the other shows, so they basically gave it a soft reboot the way TNG was a soft reboot when it premiered.
But like you I wish they just put it in its own universe from day one. Have Star Trek start over and just build new canon from the TOS era and take it as far as they want in the years to come. I would’ve loved to have seen what a 24th century version of this universe could’ve looked like. But they obviously felt it had to be in Prime to succeed. Throwing it a thousand years into the future is the second best idea though since like the Kelvin movies it’s now allowed to do whatever it wants but still feel connected to everything else.
I understand there was no “Star Trek Universe” before Discovery. It’s the same as calling the CW shows the Arrowverse, or the consistency between the Marvel films the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Trek now has a bona fide cinematic universe that is equivalent to them. It’s better than whatever existed previously, however closely related those old shows appeared to be. It’s Star Trek for the modern age. And that’s a good thing.
It’s been a multiverse ever since Miror Miror :-)
I was only saying it wasn’t treated as a full on multiverse until the Kelvin movies where that universe can just exist on its own. Mirror universe has always been treated as a component of the prime universe and literally why it’s called the mirror universe.
You are very wrong about this dude. As Tiger – I always agree with like 95% of his posts, because he speaks so much sense – so eloquently put it Star Trek has had a shared universe since 1987. Its not an opinion but a fact.
Again, respectfully, I disagree. It’s an interpretation rather than a fact. Can you name another storyline (other than the Maquis, which I’ve mentioned above) that happened across TNG, DS9, and VOY simultaneously that had lasting effects on those shows?
The fact that the Maquis were on VOY came directly out of the same story happening at the same time across 3 Trek shows. That’s not happened before or since. Even the Borg storyline in VOY was only superficially connected to FC with Seven’s throwaway line about First Contact and the Enterprise being there.
The new “Star Trek Universe” has the potential to be properly connected and for there to be real impact of the events of one show felt in another – just like the android golem body plot point. These are true connections in the same universe rather than just a reference here and there.
It’s quite telling nobody agrees with you here. You must draw your own conclusions on that.
The only conclusion I can draw is that a small number of people don’t agree with my interpretation. That doesn’t make me wrong nor does it make the, what, four or so people who have replied correct (or vice versa).
Diverse opinions and interpretations are a key tenet of Star Trek, especially in the modern era. It’d be good to reflect on that.
No one is agreeing with you because your definition of what a shared universe is a misnomer. It’s just not valid in terms of what the concept actually means. Again, you can certainly apply it to your own personal idea, but it doesn’t mean anyone else has to and why it’s pretty pointless to even keep arguing about it.
To give an example of what I mean is when someone says ‘Discovery/Kelvin movies/Lower Decks/Anything you don’t personally like’ isn’t Star Trek. They have issues with the show/movies, and sometimes very valid ones like canon discrepancies or the tone being too different. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t Star Trek either. They just have issues with how the shows/films are made but apply their own personal view on what they consider to be Star Trek. That’s fine for them to believe what they want, but it’s still Star Trek in the sense it’s made under that property, so that alone makes it Star Trek. You’re doing the exact same thing here with your shared universe theory and nit picking things to a ridiculous level while ignoring the same contradictions in the new shows themselves.
So yeah, that’s why no one agrees with you. It’s not a real argument, it’s just something you personally feel based on your own preferences you created, but not recognized by what actually constitutes a shared universe which Star Trek has all the attributes people have stated here again and again.
But I agree diverse interpretations are fine to debate too; but that debate is more valid when more than one person shares it. ;)
Hey no worries I enjoyed the discussion :)
And I understand now why you feel this way and that’s perfectly fine based on your personal view and standards.
True about opinions, but it’s not opinion. Canon has been an albatross for Star Trek, but it’s all there because that is what the owners of the property has decided, and that is all on record. You can have an opinion about what you want the shows to be, but what is canonical and what is not opinion, it’s fact until the owners of the Trek property creates something that it says is not.
What was it Admiral Kirk said:
“Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant”.
Otherwise we go to:
“Discussion is irrelevant. Self determination is irrelevant. Resistance is futile”.
Tolerance and diversity of thought and ideas is very important in Star Trek.
That’s what I expect when I engage in discourse here. I don’t simply expect that everyone will agree with me.
Spock: I suspect you have a closed mind, Captain…
I think it’s incredibly limiting to hinge one’s definition of “shared universe” on something as fragile and nitpicky as a little continuity mistake and the narrow need for any one storyline to simultaneously affect every incarnation of the franchise at the same time.
McCoy, Spock, Bashir, Lewis Zimmerman, Trials and Tribbleations, the Dominion War, Picard, Locutus, Riker, Janeway, Troi, Barclay, the Maquis, Worf, LaForge, Data, the Soong Family, Quark, Sarek, Gowron, the Duras Family, Vash, O’Brien, Tuvok, Sulu, Scotty, Kirk, Guinan, Gul Ivek, Q, the Borg from Regeneration through to First Contact, the Mirror Universe, Lwaxana… all are crossover characters and elements.
The shows and films over 40 years used the same ships, design aesthetics and continuity, which is unheard of for any genre property besides Star Wars and Doctor Who. Star Trek was a shared universe well before Marvel and DC came along. Rick Berman famously wanted to keep them separate in ways he thought would keep them unique and appealing, and no doubt we all have our opinions on decisions like not allowing the Enterprise E to appear on TV etc. But there are so many examples of events and characters that directly reference events and people from Enterprise to Picard, it’s just anal to let something like a real world production decision of changing the makeup for the Trill because Terry Farrell was pretty to upend the idea that these shows co-exist. You be you, but it’s totally in contravention of the creatives’ overall intentions.
All points I agree with :)
I suppose the crux of my argument relates to the stories.
With the exception of Gul Evek, who participated in the *only* storyline to be spread across all three 24th century shows, there was – as you point out – a deliberate attempt to keep the shows separate. TV at the time didn’t allow for fans of TNG to necessarily watch DS9 or VOY. TV today not only allows that, it encourages it (c.f. The Marvel Tv shows tying in with the films, etc.)
The Maquis plot was the only one to happen on all 3 shows simultaneously. The other similarities you mention are incidental and referential.
My question would be this: do you need to have seen Best of Both Worlds to understand the Borg on Voyager?
Or, did you need to have seen TMP to understand TWOK?
The answer to both questions is “no”. Because – until now – the shows have not been that closely connected.
The Star Trek Universe now allows for two shows to be different parts of the same story. Like the MCU or the Arrowverse.
That has never been done before on Star Trek (except for very, very briefly and it was only a couple of episodes here and there – vis. the Maquis plot lines).
Then it’s really just about the degree of Shared Universe we’re talking about. Before, we’d get things like the Dominion War (yes, it’s all DS9, but it affects Insurrection and Voyager) or the Mirror Universe which did need to be explained in Crossover and some knowledge of First Contact and The Tholian Web would have helped for In a Mirror, Darkly. It’s not a storyline that gets shared the same way as say, Captain America 2 and Agents of SHIELD handled HYDRA and Marvel cross-pollinates its movies and shows now, or whatever the Arrowverse does, but it was significant, and a progenitor for what can be done now but the studio was hesitant to indulge then.
That said, things like beefing up a show for its series premiere or during sweeps by bringing in characters from other shows is significant and made it all one big happy family.
As for the Borg, I’d argue no prior knowledge of them makes Unity less impactful, and DS9 felt it necessary to include scrolling text to introduce them in Emissary (as did Voyager the Maquis in Caretaker).
And can anyone watch TWOK without having seen TMP? Yes, but does that matter? That’s like asking if someone needs to have seen Basics Part 2 to enjoy The Swarm. If someone hasn’t seen any TOS and gotten to know the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic, then they are missing key elements to fully understanding the film’s significance. TWOK also goes on to be part of a distinct trilogy of films, so I’ve gotta give that example some side eye ;)
Yes, because of streaming and Marvel precedent, it’s safe for Trek to go further and intermingle plots more than it did before. But none of the Berman Trek spinoffs existed in a total vacuum, they all built upon the work of the shows before them. In DS9 and Voyager’s cases, their entire premises required set up in the other shows!
I think this sums up what I was trying to say better than I expressed it above, thank you! 😂 Totally agree with you here 👍🏼
I recall lamenting in 1998 how Insurrection had only a tertiary connection to the Dominion War. Think how cool it could have been to have a movie directly related to it – heck, it could still have been about rescuing a besieged colony and featuring underhanded Admirals trying to do a back room deal with the Vorta, but with the Dominion you’d have a more serious film, established aliens to make into villains, and an excuse to pull in more DS9 characters. Hell, a part in Insurrection would have been made so much sense for Jadzia and could have saved Terry Farrell’s contract negotiations!
Well well said Ian!
It’s always been a shared universe, just not as laid out like today shows and films.
“Star Trek was a shared universe well before Marvel and DC came along.”
You don’t seem to be aware that DC and Marvel exist since the 30s. There are even DC tv shows that are much older than Star Trek.
I was not aware there were older DC tv shows that did crossovers, no.
But since I never once mentioned literature, I would think you would realize I was talking about the Marvel and DC TV and movie cross pollination that’s been happening over the last 15 or so years.
Since you mentioned Marvel and DC it is hard to realize you exclude the comics. And yes, I don’t know if older dc tv shows did specific crossovers before Star Trek (Marvel shows surely did). But at least the Superman/Supergirl movie crossover was before Star Trek had any shared universe.
Good to know.
“Or Kirk and Raffi on a mission with Seven of Nine and Neelix?”
Isn’t Neelix still in the Delta Quadrant with Dexa, who just happens to have an “x” in her name?
Last we heard. Maybe we’ll see him in Prodigy?
Michelle Yeoh is a fantastic actress. I think they were surprised when they could get her for entire seasons of Trek. Feels like they assumed they wouldn’t be able to afford her past the pilot and ended up regretting killing Captain Philippa off in a way they couldn’t bring her back.
I feel for the writers trying to figure out how to fit her into Trek given she is in actuality available… almost too good to be true!
I suppose what’s great about having a former genocidal emperor as your main character is that it is a crazy redemption arc where you can have her die at the end with some real anti-hero stuff that has never been done before in Trek.
Wonder if you could have Emperor Philippa switch with Captain Philippa at the last second and then have Captain Philippa go on to fight the time wars??
Or just blow up the whole timelines…
I really think they should redo Enterprise properly with Scott Bakula, but just thinking about it makes my head hurt re: time travel. Always horrid since why not reset everything?
Loved Yeoh as the original Georgiou. Hated her as Space Hitler. But I’m inclined to see what they do with her if the Section 31 idea really happens. At this point it’s between that and the next movie in terms of which one will we ever see first. ;)
I love Yeoh in interviews, and wish the writers would find a way to take advantage of her actual personality. Put THAT character in the lead of a Trek series, and I’d be excited.
I respect your opinion on this, but I personally think Yeoh is a limited actor and Georgiou was the dullest character on Discovery. Building an entire show around her… ugh. Her delivery is so cardboard. Discovery has so many better characters off which they could springboard a spinoff.
Yeoh is a phenomenal, BAFTA-nominated actress. The issue with Mirror Georgiou is that her dialogue was not written to play to her strengths. Technobabble and wordy sarcasm like a Westerner would spout? Who thought it was a good idea to saddle a Malaysian-Chinese actress with that? You look at Yeoh in Crouching Tiger, The Lady, Sunshine, Crazy Rich Asians, Memoirs of a Geisha, Reign of Assasins et al and she’s in full command of the emotional aspect of her characters and the dialogue suits her. And in her swan song Disco episodes, she gets to play that, instead of coming on for one-liners that sound weird coming from someone without a Western accent.
Well, make it show! I’m up for seeing that!
Who actually wants the Section 31 show?
I get that Michelle Yeoh is an incredible asset and a big draw for Star Trek, and she just becomes more so as time goes by so I understand the feeling that they might not want to waste that opportunity to give her her own show while they can.
But! How can there be a show about a secret organisation who’s sole purpose is doing morally questionable and often times just plain bad things in order to keep the right balance and peace for all, by any means necessary, and still have the ideals and traits that make Star Trek Star Trek?
How is that going to work? Where is the optimism coming from? What are they going to explore? The bad side of the human condition?
After all the real-life bleakness that we have been subjected to? No thanks.
My entire family.
I would. It’ll be interesting to see a Trek show that’s develped primairly for a foreign market.
Phil you keep saying this but literally no one else is. Just because she’s not American doesn’t automatically imply they are selling the show mostly to non-Americans.
I have a friend from Singapore, the first time she spotted Ms. Yeoh on a Discovery clip I had up, she was asking what Paramount did to score such a talent. Yeah, I know opinions will vary, but in her market she’s John Wayne, Charlton Heston and the Beatles all in one package. Since JJ rolled out Trek 09, there’s been plenty of chatter from the powers that be that they want to grow the franchise outside of Treks traditional market. Having Ms. Yeoh, and the animated shows in the fold make that a real possibility. Will it work? Time will tell.
We can have a show with Ms. Yeoh but not have it be about Section 31.
Sure, she’s done a lot of Hong Kong films. Does that mean that when Jackie Chan made an American movie that was shown in Hong Kong it was made for the Hong Kong and the rest of the East Asian market? No. It’s an American film that was using a popular Hong Kong lead which means it might make more money than normal in that overseas market. That’s all.
Again Phil, I get that. What I’m saying is you are just making an assumption it’s going to be a show primarily for Asian audiences when no one has ever said or implied that.
You give the Kelvin movies as an example, the difference being that was said about those movies countless times, both in PR and marketing and why everybody knew that.
But yet you got it in your head that’s what this is as well and keep saying it like its some foregone conclusion. Can you be right, sure. But no one anywhere has said the show will be for a different audience. Not once, anywhere, in the now 3 years (wow) since it was first announced. They only describe Section 31 like they have all their shows thus far, it will be a show that will appeal to Trek/western fans first and foremost. Can you tell me one line anywhere that they said this will be aimed directly at new and foreign audiences? I can’t think of one.
In fact the ONLY show that they have emphasized over and over again was meant to capture a different audience is Prodigy. They keep pushing the young demographic model as to the entire reason it even exists. Every other show from Discovery to SNW, it’s targeting the same fans they always target. They gave some lip service about LDS being aimed at teens, but clearly they expect the majority of those fans to be older and long time fans still. As for Section 31, not one single word has been uttered differently from any of the other live action shows at least.
Even Yeoh herself. She’s given multiple interviews talking about the show. Can you pull a single instance where she talks or highlight the show will be aimed at other markets? Just ONE quote anywhere?
That’s what I’m saying, when they are trying to target a different market, demographic, etc, then they say it over and over again. Everyone knows Prodigy is suppose to be for kids because it’s been part of every press release and talking point in the marketing. None of that has remotely been discussed for Section 31.
But maybe if and when the show starts before 2028 then it will. But dude, just having an Asian star doesn’t automatically mean that either. Shang-Chi is a huge Asian MCU movie (which also stars Yeoh as well) but it’s still geared mainly for MCU/Western fans first and foremost. Sure they mention its great to have it for Asian audiences who may not care about comic book films normally, but its not really marketed any differently or specifically for Asian countries either; it’s just more about having diversity within the brand itself. That movie didn’t even show in China, but that’s for the usual eye rolling political reasons.
I would watch a Michelle Yeoh show now that they’ve messily had her embrace her good side, while still letting her suffer no fools and be a badass. I don’t need that to be a Section 31 show though, Disco and Picard have been plenty dark as it is.
Me and everyone I know who watched Discovery.
I don’t want a Section 31 show, but I’m sure there is an audience for it. Personally, I would love a show just about the story of Surak and how Vulcan came into its philosophy of logic, but I understand I am in the minority for that.
But I do think that more Star Trek is better than less Star Trek, even if it dilutes the franchise. There is a greater chance to find the gold even if you have to dig through all that mud.
I’ve never been a fan of Section 31 back when DS9 made it up. But if they wanted to do a show set among Star Fleet Intelligence… That could be interesting. Personally I’d like Trek makers to forget that Section 31 was ever mentioned in Star Trek. And for that matter, the MU too.
Same. Both concepts were fine when they were first introduced, but they have done them to death. I love Mirror, Mirror and I still think that “Section 31” from DS9 didn’t actually exist. My theory is that it was a fringe group not supported by the UFP that died with Sloan. But then the Section 31 in the Enterprise show made it worse and then Discovery made it even more worse. The same with the MU in both shows.
I hate the whole section 31 aspect of Discovery and the new show. They are supposed too be a section of the federation operating in secret, not out in the open doing whatever they please.
If they really want a Trek vehicle for Yeoh then just come up with a different character for her to play. She wouldn’t be the first actor in Trek to play different roles. There is no rule that says once an actor plays a part they are stuck with that part in that same franchise forever. Space Stalin is just not a good role for her. In fact, it’s not a good role for ANYONE. It’s a lame soap opera concept that sounds like something they might have done on TNG.
I like this idea within the live action shows, but I would have a hard time taking some live versions of many of the animated characters seriously, especially from Lower Decks, if they all of sudden showed up live on a main series show, and acted more serious and less crazy.
I think Star Wars has shown how feasible this is these days. One thing I am loving about all the SW shows is that they ARE crossing over in ways ST fans want to see their characters. The new character Fennec Shand who was introduced in the Mandalorian and will be in Book of Boba Fett was also in the animated show the Bad Batch this year. In fact both The Clone Wars and Rebels now have live versions of those characters coming to Ashoka as well. So that franchise has made it pretty acceptable. The first animated character turned live action was Boba Fett himself and that was over 40 years ago.
I think this is the future of Star Trek too. Since we now have various legacy characters also animated like Riker, Janeway, Q, Paris, Chakotay, etc, then it will naturally work the other way and see the new animated characters show up in live action. It’s just a very different world today. For most fans, especially younger ones, live and animated is the same thing in their minds, just in different formats. I would love to see Mariner, Tendi, Dal, Zero and Boimler as flesh and blood people (OK, that’s impossible for Zero ;)).
Of course our Lower Deckers will have to turn it down a bit on something like Picard or SNW, but they can still be comedic in their own right too.
And one must consider in the case of Lower Decks, there is more than a passing resemblance between the characters and their voice actors.
Sooo true! So they won’t have to recast if we ever get there.
The future is what you make of it. I find the concept of animated characters crossing over into real life as idiotic and dumbing-down the franchise.
I know your feelings on animation well lol. But again, once you decide to make it all canon, then nothing stops them from doing it, right?
For the record, I don’t think its going to happen anytime soon. It took eight years before we saw a character from The Clone Wars show up in live action which was Saw Gerrera in Rogue One. BUT then again there was no live action shows or movies when TCW started until TFA came around, so that may not mean anything.
My guess we will first see characters from SNW, DIS or PIC show up in animated form in LDS or PRO before the other way around and that can be years away. We saw young Burnham already animated in Short Treks!
Yeah, I think it’s much easier for a “serious” character from a live action Trek to become an animated guest in an animated show and still be convincing, versus the reverse. For example, converting Lower Decks loud, outrageous, comedy cartoon characters to live action “serious” characters I think would be quite a challenge to do without changing the behavior and believability of the original animated character substantially.
Eh, I’m not that worried, I’m sure they would figure it out!
I just want to see my guys in LIVE ACTION!!! As Janeway would say, do it Kurtzman!
Aw come on, if any Trek actor has comedic experience in an animated TV show its Patrick Stewart LOL
Well said, especially for Lower Decks. The primary issue is that they are all so comedically-oriented, loud, and outrageous on that series, that when they slow them down to become more serious on a live show, the characters won’t match the source material well. It won’t be believable and I would expect would come across as lame and annoying.
if the lower decks character like mariner,boimler,tendi,rutherford were to appear in picard that they would be between 18 years older then what they are since picard takes place in 2399 and season 2 of lower decks takes place in 2381 so they would be older more seasoned as troi would put it and thus not a silly,loud and outragous as they are in lower decks
Actually I feel like Lower Decks as more in common with Star Trek Discovery than any want to admit. Star Trek Discovery is certainly funnier than LDX. Often unintentionally but still… But both are filled with horrid characters and fail at what they are trying to do. So sure. I think it would be great of Burnham & Company show up on the Ceritos somehow. They mesh in tone would be the easiest to take of all the SH shows.
Riker and Troi exist in animated form now. There’s no reason Mariner and Boimler couldn’t have live action counterparts. Hell, Boimler is basically a less neurotic Reg Barclay anyhow…
Once you pass that threshold with known live action characters and its all live action anyway, it’s not a big deal for the opposite to happen.
Oops, I meant its all CANON anyway. ;)
You mean with Rosario Dawson being Ahoka Tano? If so that is a good point.
Curious… What animated thing did Boba Fett show up in before The Empire Strikes Back?
The infamous Star Wars Holiday special was where Boba Fett was first introduced. It was in an animated segment of that program.
Infamous is right! I saw it way back then but that was the one and only time. And I don’t remember anything from it.
Think it’s possible Lucas had the Boba Fett character in mind back when he was writing the first film? Perhaps in the original overly long epic version he pared down to be the first film?
I think that is true because he did eventually add Boba Fett to A New Hope for the Special Edition version.
Weird? Sure, but not particularly moreso than seeing the reverse with Riker and Troi.
Not so, because Riker and Troi come across as serious characters when they cross the medium. They don’t all of a sudden become loud, outrageous and farcical. If they did, most fans would be in an uproar over that weirdly inexplicable change in their behavior.
i do belive riker did become loud and outrgous and farcical in lower decks especially in the battle scenes were he wouls start shouting jazz references as commands something he never did when he was put in command of both the d and later the e nor did he come onto the bridge and say to everyone what he was just doing on the holodeck that was a very different from how riker was in tng,the 4 tng films and in star trek picard
It’s really funny watching Riker in Samaritan Snare, the episode when they run across the Pakleds the first time. That guy is so serious in that episode you would think he was having a heart attack.
And then we see him confront them again on Lower Decks, it’s like he just showed up for his own surprise party. It’s serious fare but he’s cracking jokes and bantering with Mariner while blasting the Pakleds into Pakled hell (I have to check Memory Alpha but I’m pretty sure that’s what they named it). And every scene after that into season 2, it’s just jolly Riker. Someone joked on another site, this is what Riker would’ve been like the whole time if he never served under Picard. ;)
In other words, they would just give the characters the proper tone depending on the situation. We seen all the Trek characters act silly at times, even Picard. OK, I can’t think of a single silly or joyous moment with Tuvok. I swear, that Vulcan is like pure granite. But everyone else yeah, they found ways, so I imagine it can go the other way too. That sums up about 90% of the MCU characters. They crack jokes and get silly until it’s time to kick serious Avengers ass. And our guys are all Starfleet officers and act accordingly when needed. I wouldn’t overthink it;
I would love to see live action versions of Riker and Mariner together. That would be SO fun!
Discovery and Strange New Worlds essentially crossed-over already with Discovery being the de facto backdoor pilot for SNW.
I will believe they’ve got crossovers planned (beyond Seven on Picard and Chakotay on Prodigy) when I see it.
Do you know how many legacy characters will have been on DIS, SNW, PRO, LDS and PIC by next year? 25 characters! Yes I counted lol.
Crossovers have been happening since the first season of DIS. What Kurtzman is talking about is that none of the new shows/characters themselves have crossed over into each other. We haven’t seen a character specifically created for Discovery show up on Picard or a character specifically from LDS show up on Prodigy. That’s what he’s really getting at. But in terms of old characters from previous shows popping up on the new shows, they are all over the place now.
Lol, indeed. Were any of those appearances any good?
That’s the thing, I’ve actually enjoyed nearly all of them. And I was skeptical about a few of them, mostly Spock showing up on DIS. I honestly expected it to be a disaster lol. But it worked out great IMO and partly why we are getting a Pike show now. I liked all the appearances on Picard, seeing Riker and Troi again the biggest highlight. People seem a little divided on Seven and that she’s a bit darker/angrier on that show, but I didn’t have a single issue with her. She seemed like old Seven to me, just with more baggage.
I liked all the appearances on LDS so far too, once again Riker and Troi being the big highlight. Q could’ve been better but that was really a cameo in every sense of the word. I expect him to be the Q we all grew up with on Picard…and more than 2 minutes of screen time. ;)
You didn’t like any of them so far? Not even Pike? Everyone seems to like him.
I don’t even think of her as Seven anymore. I think of her as Annika.
i think they agree with you that she is now more annika then seven now since when she connected to the borg ship the line annika still has more to do was said just before she disconnected
Crossover stuff seems much more tricky than in the 90s, when all the shows were set in the same time period. Right now it seems like Lower Decks and Prodigy are probably the closest in time, but pretty far apart in everything else. It would be pretty believable for older versions of Lower Decks characters to be around in the time of Picard, but a bit weird to happen while LD is still ongoing.
That’s a minor objection, just say temporal cold war something something, and presto.
Or just say “nexus” which appears each 78 years. ;-)
Yes they really didn’t use that opportunity to make crossovers of DS9 and VOY.
Q vs. the Tholians vs. The Organians vs. The Prophets vs. The Traveler vs. 32nd C Section 31/Obsidian Order of The Founders vs. V’dresh Supersorcerersoldiers. Boom.
The Tholians seem a bit outmatched there.
Section 31 is garbage
how do you know it is not out and in not in active production
have you seen a script i don’t think so so why not wait till the first episode or 2 is out or even a full season before saying you don’t like it remember the saying don’t judge a book by it’s cover it allso applies to tv shows and movies though it would be don’t judge a show/movie by it’s trailer
as a trailer much like the cover of a book does not give you a accurate view of what it is as a whole
A bad concept is a bad concept. We have seen enough in Discovery of Section 31 to conclude that such a show has very few potential. Those writers did not even understood what Section 31 was about in the first place.
That quote really tells us all we need to know.
Yes it does. To me, Kurtzman resembles a kid sitting behind the wheel of a really nice car, and he has no idea how to drive it.
Section 31 🥳
Crossover: Q shows Picard his life as the audience has seen it on TNG and the films. Then Q states that was another life, in another time and the audience in thrown with Picard as he would be in the Kelvinverse. Q tells Picard he will allow him a chance to fix what was supposed to be and in doing so, Q plucks assorted cast and crew from the various Trek series to aide Picard in restoring the original timeline. Q does not allow Picard and his new crew to stop the Narada from being thrown back in time (as that would not be a challenge); instead they are forced to travel in time to pivotal moments in Federation history to make sure things occur as they were meant to. However, along the way, various villains including Khan, General Chang, Lore, Sela, Soran, Section 31, the Founders and the Borg Queen realize what’s going on and try to stop Picard and alter time to their advantage.
If section 31 ist still alive AND he is talking about crossover AND we haven’t heard anything concrete about S31, I wonder if S31 might be tied with that dystopian future we have seen in the preview of PIC. If that is the case, that might be the reason that we still don’t know anything about 31.
But I rather assume that S31 has put aside because the idea isn’t popular or they still don’t know where to go.
I think the difference of future crossover episodes might be that the plot will affect both shows, i.e. a storyline which takes place in episodes of 2 or more shows.
All the crossovers we had until now were rather camoes or revisits.
This is a good idea. It could b happening already. Who knows if the AI at the finale of Picard has anything to do with the Anomoly.
This is also well handled in a few novel series, IIRC.
I think the producers have said that Discovery season 4 doesn’t have a villain. If the anomaly was caused intentionally by anyone I would call that a villain.
It would depend on why they created the anomaly. If they created it specifically to destroy planets then they are a villain. If the destruction that the anomaly is causing is just an unfortunate side effect, they may not be villains.
Hell, I’m still hoping to see 32nd century Klingons and Borg.
I find it interesting that they have not yet confirmed a 5th season for Discovery. I wonder if they are going to continue with the 32nd century Federation, but if they are going to do it with a different show. I follow several of the Discovery cast on IG and it seems that they have all returned to the US and have bought/leased homes, started doing different things. I wonder if anyone else has thoughts on that.
Maybe we will get a show with the Enterprise or Voyager captained by Saru. He is by far the most popular character from Discovery, and they have set him up as a Captain now, and having two Captains on one ship during a time that Starfleet needs all of the officers it can get – I think you see where I am going with this.
As for the Klingons, the fact that we have not even seen one since the time jump is interesting to me. It is almost like they are not showing them on purpose.
Of course IT needs to be for a reason. Saying that is Like saying a TV Show needs some kind of plot. No Shit…
Those words are so pointless…
If you had experienced some of the more pointless Arrowverse crossovers, you would not take it as a given that there would need to be a solid plot or meaningful roles for the crossover characters.
The crossovers became some kind of yearling tradition for the CW. It is some kind of promotion for its other DC properties. So they typically show one episode of a multipart crossover on each of their shows.
The fact that outside the United States, the individual Arrowverse shows are distributed to many different television broadcasters and streamers seems to have been completely ignored. In our household, we’ve never been able to see a full 5 part crossover because we don’t subscribe to all the services required.
But the worst of it is that each set of writers takes on one episode and they tend to promote their own characters at the expense of others. There are some reports that they do the same to the actors of the other series.
So, while a commitment to meaningful crossovers that are respectful and true to the characters of other series may be a minimum expectation, it’s good to hear it voices from the person in charge of the franchise. Unfortunately for some other franchises, it’s not a given.
I meant that saying what Kurzmann said is meaningless and not that a crossover doesnt need a good story.
I have seen some of the terrible crossover events of the CW. And I am sure that stuff like “there have to be a reason…bla bla” was also said by the CW producers.
Not sure about the CW on that.
Once they became an annual event, finding a story for the crossover followed rather than vice versa. Worse, the Arrowverse show runners don’t even have the kind of monthly alignment meetings that Kurtzman has established to maintain alignment/continuity.
If they didn’t plan the course of the shows around the crossovers then they lucked out pretty good because the shows did indeed flow right into the crosovers.
For the record, Crisis was really good. So good that I actually bought Arrow Season 8 BD ONLY for the bonus disc of all the Crisis episodes. It was the only place one could get it.
You know who I want to see as my first SNW crossover? First trailer we get a scene of Pike on Enterprise pouring himself a Martini in a lounge when we hear a voice in the distance…
“What are the parameters of your mission Captain Pike?”
Cut to Ambassador T’Pol sitting in a chair raising an eyebrow!
“Trying to save the galaxy without Federation Council approval is a direct violation.” That’s our girl!
Came up with it all by myself! Make it so!
What an oh-my-gosh brilliant scene! I like it!
Thank you Tony! Thank you!
I try not to pat myself on the back (too much), but this is a pretty brilliant idea! I feel like I was inspired by some of the great ones.
I’m thinking he and (Dr.) Phil Boyce shared one, but, being a man of a certain age, returned to his quarters…and clearly knew what was up….🚀
Dr. Boyce returns to his quarters….🚀
And since T’Pol will be over 160 years old there is no need to get Blalock under old age make up to play her. It literally could be any old actress who resembles Blalock. I would endorse such a scene if it was a one time thing and it fit what was going on in the show.
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I have no faith that these showrunners can properly produce competent, much less comprehensible crossover stories. The concept itself is exciting beyond belief, but not with this bunch, imo.
I didn’t know Season 5 of Discovery hasn’t been greenlit? Considering the production lead time for this show, that seems unusual to not be working on the next season while the current one is airing. Otherwise we are in for a multi-year hiatus if it returns at all. Anyway, if Discovery is wrapping up this season, I would love to see a new series based in this time period. And the first thing that comes to mind as a great possibility is a show based on the the Voyager J (kind of like Star Trek Voyager: The Next Generation). They did mention they were outfitting the Voyager with a new experimental drive, could be an evolving series premise?
I’d love to see more in the 32nd century, but I don’t really see the point of doing Voyager if they aren’t stranded decades away from the Federation. Otherwise, it might as well be any starship.
Some fans just want to see the legacy of Voyager herself continue. I personally want to see the Voyager A show up on Prodigy under Chakotay. Just like having multiple shows with the name Enterprise on it. Would be nice to have more than anything else. But no, not a requirement either of course.
If Prodigy is only 5 years after Endgame, no reason why the original Voyager couldn’t still be in service. That would be delightful.
Certainly true! I would love to see the original Voyager as well. That would certainly be a bigger crowd pleaser for sure.
But I assume if they did make another Voyager this soon, it’s only because the original became a museum piece like was stated in Endgame. But I also know in the novels, the original Voyager went back to the Delta Quadrant, so you never know and fingers crossed.
The original Voyager had to at least have been completely torn apart to study all of the alien tech added over the years, like Kristin Beyer did in her books. She’d have to have been essentially rebuilt (like Discovery was) to enter service again.
I wouldn’t like that. I think it would cheapen what they did for the Enterprise. Only because Voyager had its own show? There would be no legitimate inuniverse resaon for this. Do you want also a station DS9-A?
Well, we do know there will be a Voyager A eventually, since there was a Voyager J in Discovery.
Gosh, you are right. I tried to forget that scene. It is one example why I hate the writing on Discovery so much.
Yeah exactly. The only reason why I consider it now. If there was no Voyager J in the 32nd century then no it probably wouldn’t be something I consider either.
Ok thanks, that makes more sense for me now.
If I were a betting man I would wager they will get another batch of 13 episodes. If the show were to end it would have been announced and they would certainly give it a final episode.
If they do a crossover I hope it’ll also include the legacy shows.
Please no, they’re already actively destroying TNG with Picard, please don’t let them destroy Enterprise, DS9 and Voyager.
Exaggerate much, you do.
Nah, Lukas is right.
Ordinarily, I wouldn’t be concerned about no formal fifth-season pickup announcement at this point. But unless I’m misremembering, CBS has traditionally made it a point to announce this on or around the date of a season premiere.
The holdup could be attributed to any number of reasonably innocuous things, but it’s tough not to worry, if a tad.
Trekmovie has a new article with interview snippets from the ViacomCBS CEO. In it he’s saying that season 4 is doing better than any previous season.
Also, it would seem strange to me if they bought back Discovery from Netflix only to end the show after season 4. So I wouldn’t worry too much about the missing confirmation for season 5 at the moment.
Aye, you’re likely right!
That’s hard to believe that Season 4 is doing better when it hasn’t been watchable outside of the US. It’d literally be impossible for it to be doing better than previous seasons at this point.
Well, ViacomCBS is cagey with statements like that. We don’t even know how many people subscribe to Paramount+ because they always fold its numbers in with Showtime and BET streaming services.
But he could mean doing better in terms of US numbers, which is plausible. Doing better in terms of generating revenue via Pluto overseas would be dubious to say – they are keeping it all in-house, but I doubt the added advertising revenue matches what Netflix was paying. But again… who knows? ViacomCBS is still in a weird position of doing okay in streaming but investors will always worry about its scale. It just takes a few hits on TV, streaming and the box office to speed up its growth, especially if it creates more franchises, but it is hard to see how it can achieve the size of its competitors without merging with someone. Maybe it can survive without doing so?
They were so dumb to not buy Marvel when they had the chance.
As Ian said, ViacomCBS is talking about the numbers Discovery is doing on Paramount Plus. Obviously, it’s going to take time until the international expansion of Paramount Plus can make up for the lost revenues from Netflix.
I actually have zero interest in a Secret Hideout crossover. Although such a thing is inevitable. We will just have to hope lightning will strike and the 1 in a thousand chance it might be at least watchable will come to be. If I were a betting man I would bet against even mediocre or above quality, however.
I say nuke it from orbit.
It’s the only way to be sure.
I don’t need multiple shows and crossovers – one watchable show will do.
I feel like they’ve already done crossovers. Certainly they’ve set up retroactive crossovers. Pike and the Enterprise in Season 2 was just that, even though no show was announced. It’s kind of crossover with TOS just because of all the characters that came in and weren’t regulars. I think you could argue the same with the forthcoming Georgiou season. The only reason to do the two episodes in Disco S3 was to set that up. So, yeah.. it’s already happening in a very indirect way. I like crossovers too when they feel organic. I think parts of season 2 didn’t quite meet that mark, but it mostly worked.. bringing in Spock and Pike. A lot of fan service which mostly worked. The 2 episode arc for Georgiou in Disco S3 really didn’t for me.
For me, I think the ultimate problem with the format of a highly serialized show, is that it becomes more about character development than plot. And that’s my ultimate problem with Discovery. The Trek’s greatest hits tour that they continue to be on shows a lack of creativity. Fan service can be cool when done sparingly and with care. They need more of that. Expand the universe of Trek.. don’t just keep retreating within it. I hope Strange New Worlds can somehow find that balance. So much about what we have so far concerns me that it’s going to follow the same pattern Discovery has. I hope the big idea of the week they’ve been touting will at least outweigh any potential flaws.
Here is how I would rank Star Trek top show-runners:
What about Justman, Piller and Behr?
Section 31 is already in all of the existing shows—working stealthily in the background, so you don’t even know they’re there, like space CIA ninjas. That’s how good (bad) they are! There’s your crossover.
But seriously, a crossover doesn’t have to mean characters in the same place at the same time. I can easily envision a crossover ‘event’ where the crews of Pike’s Enterprise, Discovery, Cerritos, Protostar, La Sirena, and whoever else all deal with the same entity or cosmic event, but in their own century and part of the galaxy. If well written (that’s always the catch, isn’t it…) could be fun. And very easy to execute, as those stories could just be woven into the next season of each show. Or, do it in a miniseries, or in Short Treks format.
Lots of creative options that don’t involve time travel, Q shenanigans, the Nexus, or some other magical thing. I might find it more creatively satisfying to see something akin to the All Good Things… anomaly that grew backward in time, so you’d have a story that could be dealt with by each crew in their time period. Not that exact kind of sci-fi phenomenon, but also not simply having each ship slingshot around the sun to go back to the same time period, together.
The comics have done crossovers a number of times, and it has always felt clumsy to me. You can see too much of the writer going, “Oh, the fans will love this!” Let’s try to avoid that, and give us a story that would be intriguing even if we didn’t know the characters already.
Well, Riker and Troi were in Picard and Lower Decks. So that is kind of a crossover. And certain Strange New Worlds characters have appeared on Discovery.
Aren’t those counting?
But i am all for meaningfull visits.
Its too late, decades too late to do those Deep Space Nine TNG crossovers. At best you could get someone to show up on Picard like Sisko or something, maybe O’Brien or Worf. I’d like to see Captain Worf of the Enterprise E refit show up only if there is a story purpose not for some fan checklist. Story should always come first. I’m dreading Kirk showing up on Strange New Worlds i know they cannot help themselves when it comes to fan service. But its inevitable they recast Kirk for the prime timeline. its not a question of how but when.
My favorite crossover was between Beverly Hillbillies and Petticoat Junction. Sam Drucker was like Miles O’Brien.
I would say let it be a time travel story. Some villain is jumping between the 23rd century (ST: SNW), 24-25th century (Picard and Lower Decks) and 32nd centuries (Discovery) and the different crews have to work together to stop them